Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
21 September 2010
07:5271800No Marek - they would not get benefits for the rest of their life....
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
21 September 2010
07:5871802So you would let them starve,beg or steal..get a grip the streets of the UK would be like those streets in Delhi lined with the homeless and starving and recently highlighted on telly last night. The UK and the rest of the civilised world would condemn this country to the dustbin by withdrawing their businesses.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
21 September 2010
07:5871803So its all quite a good debate, where everyone posting recognises that the present benefits system isn't working.
Now we need to look at how best we can help people either into work, or some kind of community scheme.
It appears to be agreed that we cannot just go on handing out dosh nilly willy without anything in return.
MAREK makes some valid points with regard to those that need protecting, and yes thats a very good point, but like ROSS I'm a great fan on this one subject of Frank Field, but don't feel even he went far enough!!
What do you think SID???
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
21 September 2010
08:0971808Indeed - where is the Voice Of Reason when he is needed!!? Sid - we are missing you!
It matters so much that we get it right: we don't want the vulnerable left to beg and steal - we don't want offenders to re-offend, we don't want people paid by us to do nothing but doss about smoking and skinning up. What we do want is people to be supported in their hours of need, reduced crime, and our tax-fuelled benefits to have some outcomes. This means we really have to step outside of our prejudices and take the steps that will achieve what we want rather than the steps that will make us feel better or even that will slake our thirst for punishment and vengeance.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
21 September 2010
08:1371810ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
21 September 2010
08:2171813We can do better than to let the dross beg and steal - put them to work to earn food vouchers and such-like, no cash though. They can clear the foreshore, litter pick in the countryside and so on, those things that we know should be done but does not get done. Make them work long hours with penalties and serious sanctions for transgressing. Make them actually want a proper job and/or training if necessary and to clean up their act. No tea and sympathy for these any more.
21 September 2010
08:3071818Vulnerable does not = dross, BarryW!! And using the word Dross to describe human beings is not sitting comfortable on me - however tempting it can be when I see the scumsucking drug dealer sashaying down my road.......
But using peoples skills to earn their benefit/support whatever (we need to use better words for this stuff!) is appropriate for all the right reasons: people feel better (to use trendy parlance, have higher self esteem) when they earn their own living, wherever it comes from; the opportunity to impact on the community enables people to buy into it and commit to it more effectively; networks can support people who are vulnerable to abuse or tempted to lapse - the list goes on. Meaningful employment even if supported by "benefits" is crucial to our society.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
21 September 2010
08:3871820BERN;
Agree fully with your comments, I'm sure barryw doesn't mean to come across the way you indicate.
Theres always that line of not treating taring everyone with the same brush
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
21 September 2010
08:5471822No Bern - I am not talking about the vulnerable. What is is about discussion today that when you talk about the worse parasites in our society some jump to the conclusion that you are referring to everyone on benefits.
The dross to whom I refer are the lazy, lousy, scumbags who have been sat on their backsides leeching off of all of us for decades. Those who will not work and merely want they lifestyle paid for by the rest of us.
I do not refer to people who are genuinely seeking to improve their lot. Such people would, I am sure respond to positive incentives and would not need the harsher treatment I described.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
21 September 2010
08:5871823the food voucher idea is a proven failure, shops will exchange them for alcohol and tobacco just as when asylum seekers used them.
stopping benefits for the work shy will only hurt the offspring and drive the parents into petty crime.
having said that i have no positive ideas about reversing the problem of two generations of families living off of the tax payer.
the tax credit system should have solved it but the layabouts did not always take the bait.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
21 September 2010
09:0871825Take the children into care Howard is one answer. Free them from the mindset of their useless parents and you can break the cycle. Disagree about the food vouchers. They could be redeemed at a limited number of outlets and if they do get exchanged for cash, so what, the person handing over the cash will take a slice of the action leaving the voucher holder with less to spend on their drug habit instead of food. No-one should be given more than enough vouchers to buy 2 days of food at any one time with them being redeemable only of the day they are given out. Dont give them the flexibility to save them up....
21 September 2010
09:4571826BarryW - sorry if I was a little harsh - it does matter, though, that we are clear and use the right words.
It is easy, as you say, for people to infer that all people on benefits are the same, and clearly they are not. What we need to do is use our words carefully and be cautious to always state the bleeding obvious if necessary to underscore the point that those willing to strive will be rewarded more than those who do not wish to strive. The tabloid/Kyle generation will hear what they want to hear if we are not as clear as crystal! There is also the danger that the jobs you describe are therefore devalued if associated only with, to use your phrase, the dross - all the jobs need to be valued and used to maintain self esteem, motivation and usefullness. Isn't it the case that the less we do the less we want to do? Drive builds drive and it is imperative to try to re-build the drive of those without any.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
21 September 2010
10:0371828They were portly gentlemen, pleasant to behold, and now stood, with their hats off, in Scrooge's office. They had books and papers in their hands, and bowed to him.
"Scrooge and Marley's, I believe," said one of the gentlemen, referring to his list. "Have I the pleasure of addressing Mr. Scrooge, or Mr. Marley?"
"Mr. Marley has been dead these seven years," Scrooge replied. "He died seven years ago, this very night."
"We have no doubt his liberality is well represented by his surviving partner," said the gentleman, presenting his credentials.
It certainly was; for they had been two kindred spirits. At the ominous word "liberality," Scrooge frowned, and shook his head, and handed the credentials back.
"At this festive season of the year, Mr. Scrooge," said the gentleman, taking up a pen, "it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the Poor and Destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir."
"Are there no prisons?" asked Scrooge.
"Plenty of prisons," said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.
"And the Union workhouses?" demanded Scrooge. "Are they still in operation?"
"They are. Still," returned the gentleman, "I wish I could say they were not."
"The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?" said Scrooge.
"Both very busy, sir."
"Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course," said Scrooge. "I'm very glad to hear it."
"Under the impression that they scarcely furnish Christian cheer of mind or body to the multitude," returned the gentleman, "a few of us are endeavouring to raise a fund to buy the Poor some meat and drink and means of warmth. We choose this time, because it is a time, of all others, when Want is keenly felt, and Abundance rejoices. What shall I put you down for?"
"Nothing!" Scrooge replied.
"You wish to be anonymous?"
"I wish to be left alone," said Scrooge. "Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. I don't make merry myself at Christmas and I can't afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned -- they cost enough; and those who are badly off must go there."
"Many can't go there; and many would rather die."
"If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population. Besides -- excuse me -- I don't know that."
"But you might know it," observed the gentleman.
"It's not my business," Scrooge returned. "It's enough for a man to understand his own business, and not to interfere with other people's. Mine occupies me constantly. Good afternoon, gentlemen!"
Seeing clearly that it would be useless to pursue their point, the gentlemen withdrew.
Barry
Your favourite passage from A Christmas Carol no doubt.....
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
21 September 2010
10:0971829Marek - you are so typically left wing.
Do you not get the difference between the deserving and undeserving poor?
I, like most Conservatives, am happy to support personally or through the benefit system those who genuinely fall on hard times and wish to get themselves back on their feet.
Those who cant be bothered to help themselves do not deserve a penny from the taxpayer or charity.
The reason they feel they can leech on the rest of us is because of people who pander to them, usually from the left, who treat them as 'victims'.
21 September 2010
10:527183021 September 2010
12:4371836There are many reasons why someone appears to "not be bothered", though. Depression saps the will and drive; culturally, if someone is from a long line of the unemployed it will be all s/he has known and that is tough to break from; habitual redundancy can cause people to lose the will; poor education reduces expectations. The trick is not in drawing a line between deserving and undeserving - playing God is better dealt with on another thread - but in enabling as many people as possible to raise their expectations, their game, and their standards. Without horsewhipping them!!!!
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
21 September 2010
12:5371839Agreed BERN
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
21 September 2010
13:1671840They need the horsewhip - being all soft and cuddly has led us to this situation, some people will only take advantage. It comes down to attitude?
If genuinely suffering from depression then it needs treating but it must not be allowed as an excuse. Too often excuses are accepted when a good kick up their backsides will be more effective.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
21 September 2010
13:2671841I think here Keith's original question is answered. Left and right can agree that there is a problem but will differ in the medicine to treat it.
In respect of this issue the left go for all the soft cuddly options and are more willing to accept excuses and dip into other peoples pockets to subsidise sloth.
The right are much less tolerant of sloth and less willing to dip into peoples pockets to subsidise the lazy useless lifestyles of the p*** takers.
There are clearly two extremes of right and left demonstrated here with different shades between.
Personally I am further to the right on this issue than most and I am convinced the present appalling situation is largely caused by an overgenerous benefit system and too many people willing to accept too many excuses. We need to toughen up and to correct this situatuion that has declined so far, some very drastic action is needed to pull it around in ordeer to achieve the right balance between stick and carrot.
21 September 2010
13:3471842Excuses and reasons are two different things. Excuses serve little purpose, reasons enable us to make effective plans and real achievements.
