Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
20 September 2010
21:4071753I plan to show over next few days just how close myself/Baz/sid probably are on many subjects, of course we will differ on many, but how boring life would be if we didnt.
Lets make a start with the BENEFITS SYSTEM;
I firmly believe that everyone can put something back into society, no matter how small.
Rather than just give out benefits thought should go to see what contributions the individual could give back to society.
I don't think we can continue to just give out billions of pounds without expecting something to be given back to society.
I'm sure many could do simple tasks 37/39 hours a week sweeping streets, or such like work.
We have bred over many Govts an attitude of, they don't pay enough to go to work, so i stay on benefits.
That has to change.
There should also be in place only reasonable reasons will stop the benefits being reduced.
We all witness people In Dover who will never work, but still end up in the pub all day, get out of bed late.
So theres a small start, interested on views more so sid and baz
then will move to next subject
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
20 September 2010
21:5471756keith
i have spoken to multi coloured ken, he is ecstatic about your change of heart.
a seat next to blue barry will be available at the next branch meeting, roger will give you a lift there.
incidentally the subs are a lot cheaper with the blues and they have a subsidised bar.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
20 September 2010
22:0071757HOWARD;
It's not a change of heart, I have throughout posting on here -been clear on my view.
Sadly govts of all shades have never taken on the issue.
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
20 September 2010
22:0871758keith
i have no problem with you changing sides, it is in vogue nowadays.
i can only advise that you never attend a fund raising evening with a guest speaker.
the haute cusine consists of a rubber chicken leg, one boiled and one roast spud and bullet peas, followed by tinned cling peaches covered in evaporated milk.
best stick to the reds, the fish and chips are always fresh although the company can be somewhat coarse.
20 September 2010
22:1071759Keith. With all due respect how do you think your TUC brothers who are street sweepers are going to take this??
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
20 September 2010
22:1371761i would imagine that the TUC brothers will go crackers.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
20 September 2010
22:1371762BOB;
Can you ever have a reasonable debate with me?
The street sweeping was an example, there are many tasks that can be done even without Dover to make Dover a nicer place to work/visit/live in.
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,706
20 September 2010
22:2071764Keith the benefits system is a monster that has in its own way created 2 groups of dependants, those who are 2nd or 3rd generation without work and those whose jobs rely on there being people in the first group.
Of course the benefits system needs reform and overhaul, as part of such I would like to see the following:
a) all benefits advisers redeployed onto meaningful work or made redundant as currently all they are doing is feeding the dependency culture.
b) NO ONE should leave school at 16 and get benefits, they have contributed nothing - we should offer all 16 year olds £30 a week to either stay on at school/college or provide 30 hours per week community service - non attendance forfeits benefit
c) at age 18 after either 2 years school or community service then you are eligible for the lowest level of job seekers allowance
d) No one should get job seekers allowance for more than 26 weeks - after this time they need to contribute to society through re-attending college and getting an NVQ or C&G qualification or doing 30 hours minimum community service each week - non attendance forfeits benefit
e) removal of child benefit from all households earning over £50k per annum as frankly they do not need it
f) Housing benefit should be limited to a maximum of the rent for an average 3 bed house/flat in the area you are currently claiming/registered no moving to Notting Hill because you don't like your locale
g) no under 18 is allowed to jump the housing queue because they fall pregnant (this might also put a brake on teenage pregnancies)
h) reintroduction of the 10% tax band on the first £7500 above the personal allowance limiting the tax hit on low earners and breaking the disincentive to take low wage work
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
20 September 2010
22:2371765ROSS
Cant say theres much i disagree with you on
nice to set the debate off though
just waiting for sid and baz
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
20 September 2010
22:2771766keith
if by the term "baz" you are referring to posh barry you will have a long wait.
he has retired to his country seat and is teaching the noveau riche which way to pass the port at the dinner table.
sadly he is in reduced circumstances due to the iniquitous taxes that gordon brown levied on him.
20 September 2010
22:4171768Keith (please note lower case so I'm not shouting) I thought I had made a quite reasonable point.
I'm a great believer in the idea of Cameron and his Great Society with communities doing more to help themselves and not relying on the state.
There's no reason the unemployed should not be street sweeping, clearing out the River, swilling out the shelters on the seafront, cutting municipal grass, gardening, decorating or even checking tax discs on cars. All of these would make life a lot more pleasant.
The only question I ask is why I should pay anyone anything approaching a living wage to do these jobs if i can coerce the unemployed into doing them?
Ross,
With relation to b) above this sounds very much like the Education Maintenance Allowance (EMA) where pupils staying on at school could get up to £30 a week (depending on parental income) to stay on at school. In my experience this tended to give total wasters enough money to keep them in beer and fags as they signed up for non courses whilst building up great resentment from other kids who did not qualify for the hand out and were working their socks off to get A levels.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
20 September 2010
22:4871769bob
i am amazed that someone like you would have swallowed the guff about "the big society".
it is based on volunteers doing jobs presently done by the state.
80% of vounteers are retired like myself, the future retirement age is rising by the day!!
one other thing i will not extend my hours to do someone else out of a job.
20 September 2010
22:5871771Howard,
Personally I am in favour of as small a state as possible and society being run on more of a community basis.
When HMG is swallowing more than 50% of our earnings it is no shock that we expect it to provide everything for us from cradle to grave.
A classic example of this was the big freeze earlier this year. The pavement outside my home (and my neighbour, who happens to be German) was clear of ice within hours. The rest of the street was full of people falling flat on their arses and others writing to the local rag saying that the council should have 'done something'.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
20 September 2010
23:0271772I think we have missed out certain sections of our society that need to benefits to simply exist
the less abled bodied
the chronically sick
the injured
those suffering from severe mental illness
the ex squaddie
the poor
the aged
by all means stop the shirkers,the immigrants that have not paid into the system but plese lets not make the mistake of labelling them all as 'bone idle'
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
20 September 2010
23:1571773First of all, there are too many benefits which are paid automatically (eg child benefit, winter fuel allowance) which ought to be means tested. Secondly, there are huge numbers in the 'less able bodied' category who could do some work, and they would find their lives much more fulfilling if they did so.
Stephen Hawking still works.....
PG.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
20 September 2010
23:1771775Marek, an interesting point is what one considers to be the concept of 'simple existence'.
When I describe my upbringing in the fifties with no TV, telephone, central heating, double glazing, my father on his moped going to work whatever the weather (no car), holidays at home,shared bedroom with siblings until I went to University, my students view it as third world deprivation, whilst from the aspect of the lower middle classes of the time it was nothing unusual and as Super Mac told us 'we'd never had it so good'.
My siblings and I have all done very well (my brother having just bought a third house for £1 million plus) and all from non inherited wealth.
What standard of living are we expected to provide for those who have got themselves in a position where they are less well off?
Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,706
20 September 2010
23:1771776Bob - I think all pupils over the age of 16 should get some form of "pocket money" to attend I also think we need to shrink the curriculum so that the "non courses" you describe are no longer available
Marek - of course those who are unable to support themselves due to genuine incapacity should be supported by the state.
The poor need to be helped through education, retraining, a supportive tax system to get out of poverty not locked into a benefit dependency
I am very much from the Frank Field school of leftie when it comes to benefits and welfare
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
20 September 2010
23:3571781Bob
In comparison to you we must have been fairly well off,my father bought his first house outright for cash but it was far from being a palace.We owned a car,tv radio and went on foreign holidays.My mother had no need to work..but there were 6 of us to raise!!! but my father worked all hours holding down 2 jobs most of his life working 18 hors per day..unbelievable really...I never appreciated it at the time. Bu the work ethic in the 50's when I was born was so different.
Ross is right we need to re-educate the young and retrain those individuals who find themselves redundant or out of work.Simply withdrawing the benefits is not the simple answer we all crave for and want.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
21 September 2010
07:1171790You cant train someone who does not want to train and get a job Marek. You need the stick and whatever you say the benefits system is far too generous and needs to be seriously scaled back.
The concept of relative poverty should be dropped because with that we get people who have never worked all their life (or the lives of their parents) living with mobile phones and 42" hi-def TVs.
Ross - an interesting list in #8 but I disagree with your last point. Better to have a higher starting rate for tax than to complicate it with a 10% band. I would place tax simplification at the heart of tax reform and have income tax start at a level where no-one on the minimum wage working 37 hours a week pays tax. I would also have a simple flat tax and amalgamate Income Tax with NI.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
21 September 2010
07:4971798Education starts at pre-school before children are conditioned by their Jeremy Kyle type parents. Retraining occurs for workers who have a proven work ethic and track record but have found themselves in a now defunct or decreasing market. Barry to adopt your method simply consigns people to the benefits for the rest of their natural life.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)