Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
On the contrary David - a referendum will come with the choice being renegotiated terms bringing the UK relationship back down to a trading arrangement. The pressure for this is now irresistible. Timing is the issue now.
Guest 714- Registered: 14 Apr 2011
- Posts: 2,594
Barry, I cant see that, a referendum can only be an in or out scenario, we cant hold a national vote about whether we should renegotiate something, its all too vague.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
all a bit of a fudge - what would the question be on the ballot paper for example?
let's take it a step forward and imagine that the electorate voted for a "renegotiation".
dave and his party go to the e.u. and demand things and the answer is no to most of the demands making a mockery of the referendum.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
No David, the most likely thing to happen is for terms to be renegotiated for a new relationship with the EU based on a trading agreement. The referendum would be on the acceptance of terms and may include and out option and/or a status quo option.
In a straight in/out referendum we will lose and get locked into the EU mess forever. The massed forces of the BBC and others will seek to scare people with the great unknown and if you look at the history of referenda the status quo usually wins specially in the face of a scare campaign. It is far easier to prey on fears than make a reasoned case.
We need an alternative to the EU and not just a leap in the dark to win this.
Guest 714- Registered: 14 Apr 2011
- Posts: 2,594
Barry, as Howard alludes to, what would the ballot paper say?
Would you like us to renegotiate with the EU to lessen our commitment but retain our trading arrangement.
YES/NO
It would be 99% YES, but we then have to entrust useless politicians to do the negotiations.
A referendum is pointless unless its IN or OUT
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
most people, not only us brits, want to run their oen internal affairs but have the free trade agreement that we voted for in the first place.
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
Yes indeed, Howard. This is of EU-wide concern.
Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
David - please read what I have said, renegotiation will be done first and the ballot will ask people to accept the terms, or get out/agree the status quo.
Yes/No will end up locking us into the EU forever and that is why the LDs want that.
Guest 714- Registered: 14 Apr 2011
- Posts: 2,594
Barry, I read it, but I dont share your faith in our politicians to successfully negotiate. You may have faith in Cameron, would that be the same if it were Milliband and/or Balls?
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
David - there is certainly justification for that, but - there are massive changes about to happen in the EU and Cameron will be able to leverage the repatriation of powers as a result. This is why the timing is so important.
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
a straight question of in or out would be less confusing.
Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
Cameron who is always trying to copy Blair is now trying to copy Harold Wilson who in 1975
held a referendum after securing cosmetic changes.
The big diference is Cameron will not achieve any significant,euro-sceptic required,changes.
Cameron confirmed in his press conference after last weeks Brussels summit that he really believes
in Britains membership of the EU.
Cameron and Fox are on different sides.
It appears Fox is courting the 100 Tory euro-sceptics MP`s and is determined to embarrass
Cameron which could result in Cameron being treated to a Thatcher type exit.
Life outside the EU does hold terror for Cameron whereas Fox states life outside the EU holds no
terror for him.
The EU`s single market is vital for Britain`s economic interests.With the EU allies Britain is able to
punch above our weight in the World.
Cameron has to tread carefully, tory euro-sceptics are like a pack of hounds who can smell fear.
He threw a bone ( Sop ) to them last week which failed to appease them.
The problem with a pack of hounds is,once they grab a bone ,they never let go.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
the single market will always be there and we will be in it, we are and probably always will be a nett importer.
barry is right about the massive changes being planned, mrs merkel has made it very clear that she sees political union as the only way forward.
Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
and fiscal co-ordination.........
Guest 745- Registered: 27 Mar 2012
- Posts: 3,370
Dave just wants to stay in, he's a Europhile,
The conservatives need to get rid of him, they voted for the wrong man,
Don't trust a word he says, in or out is the way
The BBC will try it on, but the facts art the facts,
Mass immigration ,Human rights fiasco, HSE madness £50 million a day UK contribution paying in to keep this EU show on the road
Barry you just cannot polish a terd .
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
Let me just go back to barryw posting on the first page, i did answer your question barryw, but im afraid i dont write down/remember tory mp's when the fall over themselves to tell david his time is up.
on the issue of the EU the latest position now by barryw is showing that he hasnt the confidence(nor has the cobbled together govt) to go for the vote they believe everyone wants.
clearly baryw says they would lose the vote(and interesting comment in itself)
take that with david's dilly dallying over the issue, and of course his support under his leadership(if you could call it that) that he will always remain in the E U
so it looks to me like the anti eu are becoming weaker to the point of just attempting to renegotiate deals, which realy is a damp squib
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Keith - Cameron is not a Europhile at all but he is having to deal with a Europhile Party in the coalition.
We will be out of the EU and into a more appropriate trading arrangement that is becoming increasingly clear.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
BARRYW;
I'm afraid I cannot see this happening for some time to come (or ever)
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
Are you saying Cameron is telling ``porky pies ``in all his press briefings .....nah... he would not lie would he....
Britain will be in Europe in perpetuity.....
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
No, not at all - he is hemmed by the needs of diplomacy and keeping coalition partners happy. We will not be 'full members' of the EU within 5 years, I used to think 10 but I cannot see it lasting 5 now.