Guest 685- Registered: 5 May 2009
- Posts: 85
Thank you again to all the well-wishers for Alan's recovery - he is now on the mend although his face still looks a mess.
Yes, Alexander, after what happened, our (Alan and I) next campaign will be about the rights of pedestrians to use pavements and to be able to cross roads safely - too long has the law fallen over backwards to protect the 'wheelies' at the pedestrians expense.
However, back to Dover's present problem this is now two fold:
i. Saving the national monument of the Western Heights and the ancient Farthingloe Valley from unwanted development
ii. Getting EH to put money where there mouth is
With regards to the first, Mike (#1115) is already part of our team - glad to read your ever-excellent input on the Forum.
Regarding the second, Paul (#1112), comments on EH press release ... I too found it of interest as to how their view had changed from the 1992/3 Hearing, that I won. On that occasion, their submission was fence sitting and they did NOT attend - both of which was commented upon, in a negative way, by the Planning Inspector.
Albeit, I do see a way forward from EH press release, they said:
'We believe that the Western Heights has enormous potential to contribute to the local economy and have pledged to work with Dover District Council and other partners in harnessing this potential which is one of the council's key objectives.'
Now we should, as a town, hold them to it ... even old ladies like myself can do our bit!
Following the success of the 1992/93 Hearing it was agreed - and DDC should have it in their records, that the profits made from the Castle would be used to bring Western Heights up to maintain WH. I cannot remember the exact wording but it was from that money that the excellent work undertaken in the following couple of years was undertaken.
This was matched from KCC, DDC and private bodies to upgrade the Grand Shaft.
Then, as I have said before on this Forum, the Castle 'suddenly' stopped making a profit, then those who cared at DDC retired and at the same time, I had the elderly parents plus working full time to pay college fees.
This time, from the Forum alone, one can see that there are a lot of us who care about the same thing, although we differ on how to get there. Because of EH public statement we do have a common line of approach - put the pressure on EH to pull their finger out!!!
Lorraine
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
Well now we see at last a view of consent, dosh is required
and i will send off my views to E H is anyone has a conat e mail address for someone at E H i will do it today.
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
they rarely respond in my experience keith.
Guest 685- Registered: 5 May 2009
- Posts: 85
Keith - try:
Peter.Kendall@english-heritage.org.uk
Liz.Pollard@english-heritage.org.uk
They are very slow in replying - if, as Howard says, they bother - but if the are inundated and the local press take it up, then they will have to.
Lorraine
PS - Paul-the Boss, I hope it is all right to give their e-mail work addresses
Guest 761- Registered: 10 Jul 2012
- Posts: 115
Thanks for the warm welcome!
Its great to see lots of various viewpoints all merging into one over the last few posts. That is the sort of combined pressure that could make the difference with EH.
Completely agree with Paul - without availible water and sanitation very little else can happen - perhaps that would be a good first step to push for - along with a properly prepared plan for the future so that nothing unnecessary/wasteful is done in the mean time. If EH are serious about the heights being as big as the castle they have to at least start to work toward it.
If this REALLY is their plan you can also see their logic in rejecting any kind of infilling of houses - if they had allowed something similar to happen in and around the castle to fund repair works in the early days it would be hugely detrimental to the appearance and tourist potential of it now.
CGI could just have started something here...
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Hypothetical question....
The 'anti' brigade, what do you think of:
- The War Memorial
- OR if 'someone' came along and wanted to restore the Heights to their former glory, clear the trees, make the moats accessible, turn them into a visitor attraction with hundreds of thousands of visitors, with road improvements and associated infrastructure
Would you support any of these if CGI dropped their plans for the Heights ??
Or are there ANY of the CGI plans that you do support ?
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
There is an idyllic picture emerging here of cattle grazing peacefully over the Western Heights, keeping it trimmed and fertilised for the locals to enjoy the wild spaces and sea views. Meanwhile a dedicated band of volunteers would struggle on against the ravages of roots and the elements to try to keep an ever-declining section of the historic defences accessible. Eventually the moat walls will start to crumble and the grazing cattle will slowly help nature reduce them to softly contoured dips and mounds in a rolling landscape.
Such an outcome might well be desirable to some but what would it benefit Dover? As was noted by some signing the petition, there are not enough jobs for those who live here now, shops struggle to make enough to stay open and the visitor attractions we have barely manage to stay open. There are just not sufficient people in the town to maintain a variety of shops, leisure facilities and attractions, and the population continues to fall.
The Castle, which despite English Heritages protestations, continues to make a profit while swallowing up grant money for shiny new ticket offices as the Western Heights continues to decline. Repeated studies have shown that, despite being one of the most recognisable heritage sites in the country, Dover Castle is only seen as a 'day-trip' destination. Coaches arrive at the castle, disgorge their passengers who then "do the theme tunnels" and admire the views before re-embarking for home.
There are two things Dover needs to grow and prosper, visitors who stay in the town for more than an hour and spend money here and more residents spending in the shops on a regular basis. We need to grow the population by at least 16,000 and we need a Western Heights that is a visitor destination in its own right, to encourage people to make a weekend of it.
At the moment, the Western Heights, for all its unspoilt beauty, is a dark and lonely place at night and this encourages the worst. St Martin's Battery car park is popular with those who like impersonal sexual activity while the Drop Redoubt and its surrounds are a target for those who prefer vandalism, petty theft and property defacement as nighttime activities.
Put simply, Dover needs housing (with residents prepared to spend cash in the town), money ploughed into the Western Heights to preserve and improve the historical sites as a visitor destination and a full time presence on the heights to deter the detrimental proclivities of certain people. So housing, cash injection and a full time presence, where can we get that?
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,895
Two excellent posts from Paul and Chris.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
interesting but not totally accurate.
1) the area is idyllic.
2) cattle do graze the heights.
3) these delightful creatures were photographed by me grazing less than half an hour ago.
Guest 685- Registered: 5 May 2009
- Posts: 85
For goodness sake - this is the best chance for Dover to pull together for the good of the Western Heights National Ancient Monument, and straight away Paul, Chris and Jan are doing their best to put the clampers on it.
You are behaving just like Hansell, Elphicke et al over the £20million Community Hospital - if you can't have things your own way then you are going to throw the proverbial toys out of your prams.
Howard is correct in what he says.
Lorraine
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
No toys are being thrown anywhere !!
This is why we are doing what we can to ensure the Heights are still there in 200 years, why our volunteers spend thousands of hours of their own time, and travel costs from all over Kent to try and do the right thing. Most of it is a thankless task and I don't see our people moaning in the papers that they haven't got an 'award' !!!
I have put some sensible questions in posting #1126 (though I accidentally wrote museum rather than memorial) and I was hoping for some sensible answers to help find out what people want us to try and do next as doing nothing isn't an option as far as I am concerned....
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
Sorry Lorraine but, first of all £20m was taken off the table years ago, the £2m proposal for the "mid-town site" was part of DDC's euphamistic civic hub which they dreamt of including the poly clinic and an expanded Kent College. The reason so many object is that the mid-town site was never planned to include maternity or beds and the reason people still object is that the new proposal has dropped maternity and is still a glorified clinic. Dover needs an A&E, it needs a maternity unit and it needs a Hospital with beds so that families do not have a two hour each-way journey to Ashford or Margate just to visit patients.
I am well aware of the grazing, I often admire the cattle behind my back garden, for the rest I think we are all pulling together for the good of the Western Heights, just with different views on what is best for them.
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
Guest 685- Registered: 5 May 2009
- Posts: 85
Chris
With regards to the £20m Community Hospital - you were NOT there, you did not give any evidence and as far as DTC were concerned, they refused to even give me the time of day after the Hearings.
On that score, neither you nor they or even DDC contributed to the legal costs ... not that I asked. So don't you try to make out that you know more than you do ... I have the HARD EVIDENCE if you had you would know that the £20m was/is ring fenced to this year.
With regards to WH - the way forward would be to work together to put pressure on EH to put the money where their mouths are and take notice of Dr Gibbs recommendations. I have spelt out the agreement with EH as it stood back in 1993 above and even Keith Sansum did not argue against that.
Lorraine
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
My point there was, and is, that the trust were not and still are not planning on spending £20m on hospital provision for Dover. While the £20 may or may not be there, it is disputed, despite the legal efforts, and so all that has been and is on offer is £2m and the trust plan to make savings on that. All openly stated at the meetings I was at and in the paperwork they send to myself and many others as members of that trust.
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
So what pressure has there been subsequent to 1993 and before the formation of the Western Heights Preservation Society in 2000 ??
Perhaps the 1993 'success' wasn't that successful??
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
Beautiful pictures of the horses there. Lovely.
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,895
Why are the three of us putting clampers (I always thought it was putting a damper btw) on anything we just do not want this historical site to get even worse than it is now.
The town WILL continue to deteriorate if the spending population does not grow wherever the houses end up being built and I am not saying they SHOULD be built on the Western Heights nor has anyone as far as I know. The blinkered nothing must change attitude could ruin what nearly everybody wants to see preserved, even the grazing animals will change what is up there.
I will now crawl back in my hole and keep quiet.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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SWWood- Location: Dover
- Registered: 30 May 2012
- Posts: 261
Lorraine, will you be opposing the proposed war memorial on WH?
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
Lorraine;
what i did say was that English heritage need to get there a*** in gear if they are to support the works at the heights.
i didnt disagree with your comments on E.H. as everything to me is in the melting pot, but if E H dont come up with the dosh then what?
JAN H;
I hear where your coming from, but to be fair for a balanced view i'm sure paul scotchie would say he supports building on the heights if it was to free up dosh to save the heritage.
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Looking at Howard's photos, we can see that to cut down all the trees on Western Heights would be awful. I thought it was a case of preventing trees and bushes from encroaching ON historical sites and ON pathways, and removing those which already have.
But not to go and cut down ALL the trees everywhere on the Western Heights!
I was just getting used to Mike Green's ideas of promoting visitors to open day events and extending the number of such events on the Heights, and starting with small, affordable projects, such as electricity, toilets, until I read Chris's post.
Chris, increasing Dover's population by 16,000 may be an opinion of yours, but it has nothing to do with maintaining Western Heights! We're going way off tangent here.
Adding to that, an increased population in any town or city would see an increase of shops, thus taking away the advantage of increased spending in the already existing shops.
Would it not be better to concentrate on Mike's proposal, to dedicate attention on how we can get some more enthusiasm into Western Heights in conventional ways, rather than linking the subject to the building of thousands and thousands of new houses?
If you look at Dover's core strategy, Chris, you'll see that DDC have already planned 6,000 new houses in Whitfield, with more in other areas in and around Dover.
So your point on building even MORE houses would only serve to bring the whole conversation to a stale-mate, because it sounds so unreasonable.
Many local people who signed the petition know this, they know that DDC have ALREADY planned many thousands of new houses, a project which already has proved to be unpopular with many local residents.
As for bringing in more revenues to shops, Chris, this really does have nothing to do with Western Heights, no matter how you look at it, and I've already pointed out to you in the past on this or some other thread, that shop-owners will NOT give over their profits to maintain Western Heights.
In the same way as Councillors, painters and decorators and factory workers do not hand over their salaries to maintain Western Heights.
And finally, Chris, the idea of increasing Dover's population by building on more Green areas, makes evident to anyone that there will be less Green areas for us locals and for visitors to enjoy.
It would be a shame if Mike's proposal were to get lost in a long repetition of: why houses - why no more housed on W.H.
I had hoped Mike had started off a new phase of discussion that was practical, applicable, and not destined to go off on a tangent of super-fantasy such as transforming Dover into a city.
