Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
"The National War Memorial to be constructed on Dover's White Cliffs at Western Heights seeks to commemorate the 1.7 million servicemen and women, merchant navy personnel and civilians who died in the service of this country in the first and second world wars."
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 644- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,214
No Lorraine, I'm a bit confused here. You said:
"As an historian, I trust that personnel who were once stationed on Western Heights will be included."
Please remember that aside from the Royal Artillery and its predecessors, there was no-one permanently based at the Heights. For infantry the Heights were transit garrison for a few months or years only.
So what criteria do you apply? Are you referring to Western Heights personnel who fell at Heights, or those who fell after having been moved on having spent time there? If in wartime periods, all such persons these would be included by default within the scope of the memorial.
As the Heights have never been attacked outside WW2, there is no-one to commemorate outside the wartime scope of the memorial as planned, if the above criteria is applied. Heights personnel who died elsewhere, or not in wartime, would be commemorated elsewhere.
If you are proposing a general memorial to named men of the Heights, as explained, such a list is impossible to compile because no-one has that information. If only.
Guest 685- Registered: 5 May 2009
- Posts: 85
Still totally bemused, as there is no mention of a war memorial of any shape or form in the outline planning application dated 24 May 2012. This states:
1. Farthingloe
a) Construction of up to 521 residential units (use class C3)
b) Construction of up to 9,335 sq.m 90 apartment retirement village (Use Class C2)
c) Construction of up to 730 sq m health facility (Use Class D2)
d) Conversion of Thatched Barn to pub/restaurant (Use Class A4/A3)
e) Conversion of Stable Block to retail shop (Use A1/A2)
f) Conversion of Farmhouse to Bed and Breakfast (Use Class C1)
together with associated landscaping and ancillary infrastructure and works at Great Farthingloe Farm
2. Western Heights
a) Construction of up to 85 residential units (Use Class C3)
b) Construction of up to 7,400 sq.m 130 bed hotel and 150 person conference centre (Use Class C1)
c) Reconstruction of the Victoria Hall to provide 9 residential units (Use Class C3)
d) Conversion of the Drop Redoubt (nil use) to a museum/visitor centre (Use Class D1)
Together with associated landscaping and ancillary infrastructure and works at Western Heights, Braddon
3) Provision of pedestrian access network to facilitate enhanced recreational access together with associated landscaping and works on land at Great Farthingloe Farm and Western Heights.
Lorraine
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
The war memorial is nothing to do with the CGI application, it is a totally separate project !!
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 685- Registered: 5 May 2009
- Posts: 85
Yes Paul
I am well aware of this fact ... but you threw the war memorial project into the melting pot, which gave me the platform to cite what the Planning Application had to say on the Dover Forum ... too good an opportunity to miss!!!
Now, I hope that people will start to take in the fact that both Western Heights and Farthingloe are seriously under dire threat from cavalier property developers.
Further, as far as the Western Heights is concerned, it is a NATIONAL monument. As locals, we SHOULD be out there protesting about what is being threatened. Then, perhaps to paraphrase Dr Liv Gibbs - Built Heritage Conservation Framework for Western Heights - DDC Document 2012 page 175:
1.7 A vision for the future use or uses of the Western Heights, and a strategy for the site's integrated conservation management, WILL be drawn up and, following public consultation, adopted by stakeholders and implemented.
Lorraine
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
They are the key words - "future use or uses"..... heritage can be saved by development if done right, look at Fort Clarence or Fort Horsted in Medway, sensitive development around Deal Barracks, Gosport Railway Station, Woolwich Arsenal, conversion of Oxford Prison as a Hotel. All some element of compromise to secure the future of the heritage....
Been nice knowing you :)
Lorraine , why didnt you just post it anyway ?
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Whether from Eastern Dover or from Western Dover, this issue is of priority concern. Many of us just DO NOT WANT these cement blocks going up on Western Heights or on Farthingloe.
Our Green Areas, and our Heritage areas, in and around Dover, are at risk of being WIPED OUT.
Lorraine:
"I hope that people will start to take in the fact that both Western Heights and Farthingloe are seriously under dire threat from cavalier property developers."
Fully agree with you! I know many people who are prepared to protest against this. They are absolutely adamant it should not go ahead.
Further:
"It is a NATIONAL monument. As locals, we SHOULD be out there protesting about what is being threatened."
If there is a protest, let us know, I will also be there to protest, and I could gather a large crowd of local people to join in.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Adding to my last post, I can confirm that the vast majority of people in Dover have NO IDEA of these proposed development plans on Farthingloe and Western Heights.
Lorraine, the best way forwards is to prepare pamphlets to deliver from house to house in Dover, to alert people of the outrage, and ask them to take part in a petition.
If you have any plans in this respect, please email me, and I will walk up and down Dover delivering them in letter-boxes. Total volunteer work on my part!
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
I will also go a step further, and state that I do not see many people actually ever visiting the military sights on Western Heights, but rather have noted that there is by far more interest in the green beauty of the area.
People I speak to about it tell me they go there for walks, or to jog, and to view the sea, and Eastern Heights, and the whole surrounding country side.
They love the views, and also the trees on Western Heights, and the fact that, at present, there is relatively little traffic in the area.
If we do not act now democratically, all this will be exterminated, in the vain belief it "will bring in money to local shopkeepers".
Now is the time to work out a democratic way to protest, such as by way of a petition, before it is too late! One signature from DDC planning, and it is all written off!
Guest 685- Registered: 5 May 2009
- Posts: 85
Alexander your postings are way beyond what I expected to see this morning and more than gratifying ... I have alerted Lara to what you have to say, as it is she who is leading the PROTEST.
I am helping her by using my expertise - I have fought to try and save Western Heights from cavalier development since the early 1970s - including bringing a successful case in the early 1990s. It was at this time it was recognised that by allowing any building that is NOT related to the Western Heights status as an Ancient Monument + other planning restrictions, a precedence could be set.
As we now know, CGI want to build 85 residential units, 130 bed hotel and 150 person conference centre plus converting Victoria Hall into 9 residential units.
Such a precedence has been shown with the beautiful, Arthurian , Farthingloe Valley. Even though we were assured by Dover District Council that the Channel Tunnel workers camp was temporary, this turned out to be a fallacy. By the use of circuitous planning laws what was 'temporary' has set a precedence for 611 residences are to be built there + sundry 'support' facilities! AND according to CGI company reports - THIS IS ONLY A START!!!
The irony is that the powers that be and those who should know better not only refuse to see this, they have everything in their power to thwart open discussion - Locals have been deliberately kept in the dark.
BUT, you ALEXANDER, have shown that some people in Dover do care and the DOVER FORUM has once again proved to be a worthy Forum of Discussion.
Hopefully, with Lara leading the fight and Alexander and others of a like mind supporting them:
THE NATIONAL MONUMENT OF WESTERN HEIGHTS WILL BE SAVED
- And even the beautiful, Arthurian, Farthingloe Valley may be saved.
Lorraine
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
you're right there lorraine the forum is the place to be for thrashing out important issues that affect dover, the peoples port is another issue that is big on here.
have read some very impassioned stuff from lara, scotchie, alex, yourself and others on this thread.
it will be even more interesting when the planning application is lodged.
Guest 750- Registered: 12 Apr 2012
- Posts: 72
At the moment as you are all aware the Certificate C procedure was started. Currently no plans have been submitted and hopefull all parties concerned will I am sure get the chance to see the revised plans next week. I have asked CGI a host of questions that will be replied to on Monday.
I will hopefully be organising a residents meeting on the 7th June with CGI representation which any of my fellow forum participants can attend - please email me on
lara2012pimblett@hotmail.co.uk ot phone me on 07843723703.
Just an observation that perhaps using emotive words like extermination and outrage don't help much, although I recognise and respect the passionate feelings behind these posts.
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
I really can't understand the talk about protests, campaigns and leaflet drops until people have actually seen the details of what exactly is proposed.....
No-one has been kept in the dark about anything, CGI, John Pegg of the War Memorial Projects, DDC, etc, etc have been open from the start and have published just about everything that is proposed from day one. Many projects like this don't see the light of day until the planning application is submitted, so the route the current projects has gone can only be given praise !
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Lara - I am sure WHPS would be interested in sending a representative as we only want what the 'people' want.
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
I'll leave the Intelligence work to Lorraine and Lara, who are evidently expert in explaining the technical matters, and on my part remain ready for marching-orders to deliver leaflets.
Their wording can be done by Lorraine and Lara.
My Western Heights article is already on page 4 of Google under the keyword: Western Heights, and is gradually going up in rank. It can be updated when new information comes in.
One important factor to add to the many aspects is that traffic on the Heights would increase exponentially if these development plans go ahead, and that includes the WW memorial.
Intuition tells me that this factor too may be an important point relevant in blocking these cement schemes.
Look at Barton Road, London and Folkestone Roads, Frith Road, Maison Dieu, and the Port traffic parallel to the Promenade. And even the traffic passing to Deal along the Castle route:
it leaves only Western Heights as a protected area where traffic is relatively seldom, and people can enjoy a walk in the green free of traffic stress.
As for a war memorial, if this was dedicated to spiritual value, and not commercial, it would serve its purpose, would not need to be grandiose, nor attract masses of visitors.
The whole idea of attracting masses of people in order to bring in more revenues to shop-keepers seems beyond the purpose of a Heritage and Green Area.
An article in a local newspaper once a protest group is set up, would help enormously.
I'm sure Lorraine and Lara will know how to go about this too.
Meanwhile, I'm continuing to gather local opinion, which is picking up momentum, as people, previously unaware of the development plans, spread the word.
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
You speak yet more b*****s Alexander - at what point has anyone said the memorial is a commercial development
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
I will also add that with your totally misinterpretation and your own biased views it won't be a fair representation of the publics views.
It needs to reflect all possibility and information from all parties which is what the Dover Society will do as soon as the finalised planning applications are submitted
Been nice knowing you :)
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,883
Some of the posts are almost hysterical in their content now or should that be fanatical I am not sure which but certainly farcical.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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