Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
9 November 2010
08:2679215I got this information from politicalbetting.
George W Bush is to publish his memoirs in which he defends 'coercive interoggation techniques'.
The following verbatim from politicalbetting quoting the forthcoming book:
"Three people were waterboarded and I believe that decision saved lives." He denied that waterboarding, which simulates drowning, amounted to torture. Asked if he authorised the use of waterboarding to get information from the captured al-Qaeda leader Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, he was unequivocal: "Damn right!"
In the book he writes: "Their interrogations helped break up plots to attack American diplomatic facilities abroad, Heathrow airport and Canary Wharf in London, and multiple targets in the United States."
In another quote from the book he writes: "I knew an interrogation programme this sensitive and controversial would one day become public. When it did, we would open ourselves up to criticism that America had compromised our moral values. I would have preferred that we get the information another way. But the choice between security and values was real.""""
There you have it.
This was discussed on my blog recently when I questioned the definition of torture.
I do not approve of torture - the ripping off of fingernails type of thing. But the definition of torture has been widened to include 'coercive interrogation' such as sensory deprivation and abusive shooting (as would be SAS recruits have to undergo to pass).
Where would you draw the line to save innocent lives?
Would you agree to waterboarding and/or sensory deprivation and verbal abuse/threats to save perhaps thousands of innocent lives?
Was George Bush right now you know what he said?
I fully agree with him and would suppport the use of those methods in the circumstances he describes.
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,895
9 November 2010
08:5579216Torture is torture regardless of it being physical or mental both have long lasting effects and are wrong.
If it saves multiple lives is it right, I honestly am not sure where I stand on that one. As this discussion is to do with the warmongering George Bush who gives the impression that non-white life is cheap I would tend to say no.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
9 November 2010
09:1079217I think Bush is saying that if you are attacked using dirty tactics it's OK to use dirty tactics to fight back, no matter how distasteful that might be, and no matter what the consequences of it later becoming known might be.
I do not have much time for the American government and its assuming the role of the world's policeman, but I think your 'non-White life' point is a little unfair. Compared with the UK America is somewhat better racially integrated, yet most of their terrorist threats are perceived to come from non-White sources. Hence the majority of their torture victims are likely to be non-White.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
9 November 2010
09:1279218Jan - I am no fan of George W Bush. He did America too much damage for that but I do think you overstate your critisisms of him.
The bottom line is that waterboarding saved lives - preventing attacks on Canary Wharf and Heathrow, he is very specific in that.
Surely, despite his faults, we can be grateful for his authorising 'coercive interrogation' like waterboarding. I have friends who work in the City who may now only be alive thanks to him doing that.
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,895
9 November 2010
09:2679220The impression he has given me is that if two of his friends were in danger he would save the white one not the non-white one. He might not even realise he is possbly a racist it is just my feeling or instinct about him. I admit I just don't like him.
Gosh you are making me late for work.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,707
9 November 2010
10:3379223Under the United Nations Torture Convention of 1984, the full definition of torture in the convention is:
"Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity.
This definition excludes "pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions", which seems designed to permit the death penalty.
Torture is also an offence under English law. The International Criminal Court Act 2001 similarly defines torture as "the intentional infliction of severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, upon a person in the custody or under the control of the accused; except that torture shall not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to, lawful sanctions".
With thanks to the Daily Telegraph
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
9 November 2010
10:3379224I have no doubt that there is a point where "torture" of this sort is correct. There must be an acceptable level at which the decision to use it is made. We are talking here of it being used on a leader of al-Qaeda to save mutiple lives, no brainer for me.
Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,707
9 November 2010
10:3579225who defines that line?
what if some "authority" decides to move the line?
Where does it stop?
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
9 November 2010
10:4479232Whoever the authority is that makes the decison would have to be fully accountable for that decision. You would be talking Military leader level at least to make that decision.
I agree about the line being moved Ross but surely there is a line anyway its just where that line is set.
The "coercive interoggation techniques" being discussed are nothing like what would and are being used against our guys if they are caught and we are only talking about life saving situations.
Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,707
9 November 2010
10:4879233They are only currently admitting to the "life saving" ones, you surely do not believe that they only did this the 3 times?
This is a regular long standing torture technique used by the CIA etc. they will have used it on any detainee they believed might have information that might be of use to them, whether they ultimately got information or not.
And they (the US authorities) wonder why so many people hate them and what they stand for....
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
9 November 2010
11:0779235So then Ross - you would prefer now to be dead than have those 3 terrorists waterboarded?
I believe that you work in the City so you could very well have been a victim of the Canary Wharf attack, not too far from you.
Be thankful that there are people prepared to do those difficult jobs that may save your life, dont ask too many questions of them and trust to our security services and their internal checks and balances, to see that it is only done when absolutely necessary.
There are times when cynicism must be put aside and trust placed in those whose job is to protect us. We are not talking dramatic fiction here or in the abstract - this is about real life threats.
Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,707
9 November 2010
11:4279241Sorry Barry the ends cannot justify the means or this takes us to the level of those we claim to be trying to protect ourselves from.
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,707
9 November 2010
11:4679242Oh and I was working on floor 35 of No1 Canada Square in Canary Wharf on 7/11 - in fact I was a safety officer and had to lead the evacuation of our offices when it was rumoured that there was an unidentified jet heading for London.
And I still do not believe that the ends justify the means
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
9 November 2010
12:5879249i have a lot of doubts about the claims of george bush, al qaeeda operatives know very little about bomb plots.
they are given very little information, usually just about their link in the chain.
even the bomber would not know the place and time of an attack until a day or so before.
the chances of capturing one and getting information from him or her are minute.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
9 November 2010
13:0679252Howard - one of those GWB said was waterboarded was a top-dog in the organisation, not a mere bod. I would expect they would not waste time unless there was a good reason to think they would hit pay-dirt.
Ross - wonderful to have your scruples and congratulations for sticking by your principals. But that is you - what about the children who would have died with you visiting the landmark? Then there is the typist or the receptionist in your office.? Would you really look them in the face and tell them that you would prefer that they die in a terrorist incident than for a terrorist to be waterboarded, if doing so might save their lives? Would they share your scruples?
it is easy to talk in abstract or about yourself but real life is different.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
9 November 2010
13:1179254barry
most that are tortured are "gophers", i would imagine they would say anything just to have it stopped.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
9 November 2010
13:1579256How do you know exactly who was 'tortured' then Howard? How do you know they were 'gophers'? How do you know one of those was not the source who prevented the Canary Wharf incident?
You dont.
The fact is there comes a point at which we have to trust the security services to do their job and to target distastful activities only where they are most needed.
The alternative might be too terrible to contemplate.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
9 November 2010
13:3779263Torture- is having a Con/dem government in power.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
9 November 2010
14:3279266Jan Higgins, why not accept that you could be wrong with your opinion of George Bush??
Only wish our so called leaders had his guts and determination. Perhaps we would not find ourselves in this morass that we are in. For once I can honestly say I have seen the results of giving our enemies the benefit of the doubt when I served in Aden (Now part of Yemen) so do get off your high horse and get back to reality. These people hate all we stand for and we should re-act accordingly.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
9 November 2010
14:3579268Thanks for lowering the tone Marek.