Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
From the Guardian online:
Are you proud of Britain's role in Gaddafi's downfall?
With Libya's NTC reporting Gaddafi's death, David Cameron has said he is proud of the role the UK played in bringing about the end of Gaddafi's regime. Do you feel the same?
43.2% Yes
56.8% No
Poll closes in 1 day
Votes are counted every 60 seconds
The majority of the Nation is not with Camers on this!
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Self-selecting poll and not a scientific one therefore not at all representative of the country only of those Guardian readers who choose to vote and we know what the Grauniad readership are like.
I know you must be disappointed that your mate has had his just desserts Alex...
Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
# 18. Agree except point on Somalia.
Coup de Grace to Sarkosy.................French missile takes out Gadaffi convoy.
Gadaffi caught in cross fire?................with a bullit in the head ??
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Somalia perhaps an exaggeration. But unless they can get the oil flowing reliably again it's a possibility nevertheless. In my view there is no chance of forming a proper democratic government in Libya because:
1. The people do not understand democracy and consider it to be a Western imposition.
2. There are too many factions and tribes to ever get an adequate consensus on a government model.
3. Arabs consider insurgency a legitimate means of removing an unjust regime. Distrusting western-style democracy, there will always be factions trying to overthrow it.
4. Islamic parties will not participate, thereby removing its legitimacy.
5. The usual Arab government model is a strongman kept in power by buying tribal loyalties. Given that most potential strongmen are tainted by previous Gadhafi loyalty it's hard to see who might fit the bill if they try to -sort of- blend the two models.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Barry, you are not thinking straight by saying "I know you must be disappointed that your mate has had his just desserts Alex..."
If the NTC had wanted reconciliation, which is also what many leaders of western countries say they wanted, then they would not have beaten to death a wounded man while screaming with every punch "Alluah Akba".
If they had immediately treated him and the other wounded men who were with him with medical care and compassion, may-be now all Col. Geddafi's supporters in Libya would agree that it is time to reconciliate, release all prisoners, and have an election.
Maybe the war in Libya would be over now.
I doubt, Barry, that you have much sympathy for men who scream "Alluah Akba" every time they fire a shell into a city or spray it with bullets.
I don't think you really support the sentiments that motivate the NTC, so by personalising and suggesting I am a supporter of Col. Geddafi or even "his mate", you are not doing justice to intelligent discussion.
I thought we were talking here about a serious problem and its consequences, regards the war in Libya, not personal jibes.
However, after the barbaric brutality that took place yesterday in Sirte, I doubt that the NTC can do much now for reconciliation: they have probably beaten to death the very last chance they had for an end to the war and for achieving reconciliation.
It would have been better to accept the peace offers that Col. Geddafi and his family members and the Libyan government had made ever since the trouble broke out in Feb. 2011.
Well they screamed for war instead, shouting "Alluah Akba" with every shot they fired, now they will see where it led them, and if God was happy about it.
It wasn't me who screamed and yelled for bloodshed.
Whatever happens now in Libya will be troubling the ministers in Parliament who chose to intervene militarily, they will be the ones losing sleep day and night over it, not me, Barry.
They will probably forget to govern our Country with all their concerns about Libya, and are probably very worried men now.
Once again, it wasn't me who advocated intervention in that country, so it isn't me who has to respond for it.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
UN are now investigating the summary execution of Gadaffi.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
i think we all know the truth here.
most of the new regime could have been indicted of atrocities if gadaffi had been tried in court.
Guest 705- Registered: 23 Sep 2010
- Posts: 661
Yes...you surely must be referring to Gaddaffi's summary executions at Lockerbie...
Never give up...
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
If the UN are planning to investigate Gadhafi's alleged execution, they should start by investigating all other atrocities since the beginning of the conflict, and deal with them in chronological order.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Peter, Col. Geddafi wasn't executed, and he hadn't been put on trial. He was murdered. A few days before it happened, H. Clinton was smuggled into Tripoli by helicopter and publicly incited the NTC to carry out the murder.
Now compare this to the UN resolution 1973, and to statements made by western leaders months ago that "they were not trying to kill M. Geddafi".
As for attrocities, it will be hard to prove that he had ordered police to shoot demonstrators in Benghazi in Feb. 2011, and then ordered the airforce to bomb the demonstrators there, because he didn't order either of these alleged attrocities, and they never happened.
What happened was that the NTC rioters in Benghazi killed many policemen who hadn't gone over to them, burning one group alive in their police station. Some policemen may have shot out of self defence in these circumstances.
I doubt the UN will ever consider attrocity what Sarkozi and Camers did to Sirte over a two month period, utterly destroying the city piece by piece, with bombs from the no-fly zone air and by arming the rebels with tanks and guns via Tunisia and sending them in to fire indiscriminately at the population, and destroying all civic infrastructure, denying food and medicines free passage, looting, torturing prisoners and possiby civilians.
They still haven't told us how many civilians were killed in Sirte, and if they do, they will probably say they were killed by "pro Geddafi snipers".
And some would believe it and megaphone it out loud to others.
Give it the man, he held out to the very last, he fought as a brave warrior with his men in his hometown, but unfortunately the French pilots bombed the convoy after they had left Sirte, otherwise they would have got through.
That is how the French pilots got him to crawl wounded into an anti-flood pipe, so that their friends the NTC fighters could then drag him out and claim that "he hid in the sewers".
They can keep their aircraft carriers, we don't need 'em!
People who shake hands with someone and call him "their friend", get him to invest a lot of his country's money in the West, and then back-track and call him every name under the sun and attack his country, to have him lynched, are at the very least liars.
I could immagine that many leaders in the world are wondering now who will be next.
One more hint: the NTC is the only "authority" in the world that has recognised the armed Syrian opposition.
I wonder if they will now export their rage to that country and transform Syria's towns and cities into streets of blood.
Hope not!
Guest 672- Registered: 3 Jun 2008
- Posts: 2,119
Alex my dear boy, you do talk a load of B******S..
Why don't you go on holiday for 10 months and give the middle east a break.
Go somewhere cold like Siberia and play with some wildlife. it may wake you up a little bit or eat you.
grass grows by the inches but dies by the feet.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Ian, tell that Camers.
It wasn't me who invaded Libya, Ian, so I don't have to take the responsibility of going into exile!
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,706
The only sense I have read on this whole thread is Peters post#18
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Maybe this could help to determine credibility in alleged attrocities:
24 Feb 2011 - CIA planted tiny fragment of circuit board crucial in convicting a Libyan for ... that key evidence in the Lockerbie bombing trial was fabricated. ...
Not a link as such, but copy and paste will open the article on Google.
I also studied a previous article before arriving at this one, and it seems that the attack on Kuwait in 1990 by Irak imposed a change of western policy towards Iran and Syria... and a sudden change in investigations concerning PANAM 103 and Lockerbie.
If one believed everything that came from high!
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
The 24 hour news channels are once again whipping up phoney news. All day long with so much air time to fill, they are showing great concern about how Gaddafi met his unscheduled end.
Were his human rights affected ?? say the news channels spewing out the phoney concern, whipping up the phoney interest.
As they do this kind of thing right across the civilized world we get this dreary overly-concerned situation emerging about how poor Gaddafi met his end... forgetting all the while that NATO were trying to knock him off from the air which would have produced the same 'summary execution' effect...the no trial, no capture scenario, was on NATO's schedule too.
But now we get the concerned furrowed brows on TV giving us all this baloney about his human rights. Its simply this at the end of the day : the people he subjected to a brutal terror regime for 42 years delivered justice, it may have been rough justice, but nobody there cares...so why should the sofa generation in Chiswick and Chelmsford care either and sit in fake judgement.
Heaven forbid any one of us should come under this 24hour news channel scrutiny... if say you fail to pay your parking ticket, before too long they would speculate as to whather you were in fact the Penge Bungalow Murderer as a car similar to yours was seen in the vicinity on the night in question...etc etc. Look what happened to the innocent school teacher in the Yeates murder situation.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
As I said previously, his death is the last in a long line of unexplained and uninvestigated deaths. Let the UN investigate them all, one by one, until they eventually get to Gadhafi. To investigate his killing while ignoring all the others would be a gross insult to the Libyan people.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
No Post-mortem.............................................Says it all.
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
tha last i heard is that they where doing tests on gaddafi,to see how he died.
but saying that,two bullit holes in the legs [1 in each] and a bullit hole between the eyes says it all,instant death by shooting.
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,888
An evil man who met an evil death, justice won in the end.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
From a home point of view, my personal problem is that we haven't got - at least in my view - a government that dedicates itself to us, to Britain, but has and creates so many concerns abroad in other people's mess.
In so doing, how can they then find the time to dedicate care to us and our problems?
So if it is the State's priority to go around solving or unsolving other countries problems, then really we may ask ourselves: what is next?
We only see doom and gloom, rising unemployment, rising inflation, and more of the same.
Let's be straighht forward: before the involvement in Libya, did any of us ever post on that country? No!
Will we see a last line to Libya on the news, or will the whole mess go on and on at news time, or will some other mess be stirred up in some other country, in which we have to be somehow dragged?
Someone posted the other day a thread called doom and gloom, because when writing about Dover, that often sems to come up too.
I really wish we could have a new era where we sort our own problems out, but very unfortunately, the authorities that be are the ones who dictate our problems.
May-be someone could write a letter to Camers and ask HIM to draw a line in his many oversees adventures, and let us get on with our lives here at home! After all, we pay for what he does, and he seems more interested in other countries problems.
