Guest 664- Registered: 23 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,039
Gaddafi may have been a brutal dictator but to kill him in this way makes he captors no better.
we are either civilised beings or we are not. He should have been captured with minimum violence and put on trial and then sent to gaol.
The pictures are disturbing enough - i have no desire to watch the footage.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Yes Andrew. I think it is shocking that anyone can claim to be proud of what happened, and I wonder what effect such publicly acclaimed violence can have on young people.
I am sincerely concerned that such acts could spread over here and that people might be brutally attacked for the kick of it, after other people see such horrific violence on TV/internet being hosannered as "justice" and then decide to "give it a go".
God forbid!
The PM made a sick crack yesterday in front of an audience about the killing, it was supposed to be some celebrity thing at which he was a guest of honour or something like that.
I resent that our institutions have not come forward and expressed horror.
Never for the life of me have I preached violent revolution or lynching.
I hope it doesn't become an inspiration for a new kind of gang violence.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Better this way in the long run. Don't try and judge the Arabs by our moral standards and please stop the crocodile tears.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,707
Thanks Peter - for the voice of sense
We have a really bad habit in the West of assuming that our way is somehow universally better, more appropriate etc. and then trying to foist it on people who have different traditions and customs and frankly do not see the world through our eyes.
We need to start seeing the world through their eyes...
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
No, Peter. I was just concerned that the standards that were shown live and glorified by some, such as the PM, could have a very negative effect on our moral standards here in Britain. Nothing to do with crocodile tears at all.
What hapened there should have nothing to do with us here, with our standards.
We must not give up our civilised culture and our sense of justice (respect of prisoners, respect of the wounded, trials, courts...) for the barbaric things we have been seeing over the past months in Libya.
That's all and most final! We don't want attrocities in our country of any kind full stop.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
It wasn't in our country Alex. Stop judging events there as if they took place here. They didn't. Live with it.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 705- Registered: 23 Sep 2010
- Posts: 661
The 747 brought down at Lockerbie was here-I take it we can judge that event by our own standards.
Never give up...
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Yes we can; and we did; and the perpetrator was eventually found, brought to justice, and........released to live out his days in the bosom of his family. That's the way it should be done, clearly!
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 664- Registered: 23 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,039
One might also say "let's stop judging the Arabs by the actions of a bloodthirsty mob." Just because you find the sight of a lynching disgusting it doesn't mean that you are a culturally imperialistic westerner imposing your own standards, even if they are more civilised. Indeed one might argue that it is patronising to suggest that lynching is "the Arab way", as if they had not developed legal systems and were still cavemen. Plenty of Arabs (if one can generalise about Arabs)including Libyans, were in favour of proper justice on the phone in I heard on Friday). Further , I draw a parallel with the mob murder of two British soldiers in Northern Ireland in 1988. Even if you accept the Republican argument that it is not British territory, are we to say "oh well, that's their way."?
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
two different issues here.
we do wrongly try to impose western democracy on other nations who have no interest in it whatsoever.
the kind of brutality we have seen on our screens recently is unacceptable in countries whether or not they are eastern or western, many libyan commentators have expressed horror at it. the end result is that we will not now find out who done most of the dirty work for the dead dictator.
Guest 664- Registered: 23 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,039
I am not talking of two different issues.
I am talking of the specific issue of lynching. As you say Howard even a lot of Libyans are unhappy about it.
I have on the other had long argued that we do indeed try to impose more general Western values on other cultures.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
andrew
i was referring to parts of the thread where the distinctions got rather blurred.
Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
# 51..............Have to disagree.
The west has no right to impose our culture on any other nation.
The middle east democracy is in the melting pot.They must be allowed to do it their way.It will be a democracy of sorts.........................not our idea of democracy..........but better than the last fifty odd years.
Anyone who has travelled the world will know how other cultures can be harsh/frightening/disappointing/distastefull.................but we have no right to change the world.
With democracy ``of sorts``in the middle east it will improve but not interfere with the different cultures.
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
it is quite an emotive issue
on the one hand we have the ex dictator who brutally killed many
on the other we have the rebels who found him and killed him.
(although that is a concern)
but more about the future of libya, how unstable the country will be for many years to come
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Keith, the propaganda of some leaders keeps saying he brutally killed many. Many say otherwise, me among them.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
alexander;
i admire your loyalty to such a confirmed killer
not sure why.
my concern is for the future of libya, looking unstable for some time to come
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Keith, we must move on!
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
move on is the right term alex, syria will be the next one to fall closely followed by yemen.
too much blood has been spilt in both countries for things not to reach an end game.
on the plus side tunisia has gone to the polls today, one of the more enlightened arab countries democracy in some form is possible there.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Now please let me explain, folks. I, Alexander, do not know the leaders of Syria and of Yemen, never met them, and don't even know the differences between the two Yemeni sides that are confronting each other.
I bet 99% of all people in Britain don't either.
Now should anything kick off, and it should so happen that someone somewhere in Parliament speaks of military involvement, and someone else opens a thread on the Forum about it, and I object to military interference, it's purely for home-army reasons, nought to do with "being a friend of..."
Now on this cheerful note, can I get back to my bagpipes?
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
alexander
think i can hear your bagpipes
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS