Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
#21
Labour is considering including an IN/OUT EU referendum in their agenda.
If they do go ahead with that, and providing it is IN/OUT and nothing in between, they are likely to be swept to power at the next G.E.
UKIP didn't follow my advice in 2010 to aim at a social programme that would attract voters from the Left, while maintaining their campaign for an EU exit and a 5 year freeze on immigration.
I envisaged that UKIP's best chances were to work towards a future coalition with the Tory party. Instead they went for all-out bashing at the Conservatives no less than at the other mainstream parties, and went for a bashing campaign of BNP to boot.
They made too many enemies, and are fighting on all fronts.
They also seemed to have left out the campaign for a Christian heritage, and went for libertarian and civic society ideals instead.
Then Eric Pickles came along and scored all the points as Communities Secretary defending the Faith. He can't really do much wrong in my eyes after that, and can be forgiven if he does!
So, once Labour were to start campaigning for an EU exit, that will leave Tories and UKIP tearing each other apart. Now I foresaw all this, put the point forward time ago, tried to explain, but they didn't take heed.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
#22
And a very cynical ploy it is too. One that, if kept, they will rig/time to get a yes vote to stay in. What Britain needs is a yes vote to get out of the EU for which a positive vote for an alternative renegotiated future is needed not a mere In/Out. They are far more pro-EU than the Conservatives remember (but not as pro as the LDs....)
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,948
#23
this certainly has taken off as a subject.
Not sure how all the parties will get on after past history;
LABOUR;
Didn't help its corner by carrying on policies that made the situation worse over time.
TORIES;
Went along with the same, although talking tough prior to each election, then
back track once in power able to do something
LIB DEMS(who cares about them any more)
UKIP;
Could mainly damage the tories if they take a strong line on the E.U. and take some vote/seats from labour to, but realy depends how UKIP handles it all.
Cameron can;'t win on this one, he upsets his co oiltion partners thus risking its collaspe, or upsetting his own MP's thus causing internal war in his party which is already simmering under the surface.
cameron has already said under his watch there will be no withdrawing from the E.U. for so long you can blame the lib dems, but soon you will get found out.
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
#24
Barry, try considering the following:
Labour were to realise that the EU is bound to collapse any time soon, that trade between the (former) member states would continue anyhow, perhaps along the lines of EFTA, and, based on this potential reality, campaign for an EU referendum.
If this could bring Labour back into government, would they not go for it?
Ed Balls and other shadow-cabinet MPs have grasped the idea, it seems.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
#25
For them it is pure cynicism, no conviction.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
#26
Well Ok Barry, what is it for the present Government then?
Does the Government not advocate continued membership of the EU?
The PM has said clearly he will not bring Britain out of the EU, but campaigns for more countries to join, including Turkey.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
#27
Alexander - You need to understand the requirements of coalition and diplomacy to appreciate that and, quite frankly, you would take no notice and will not attempt to understand these things anyway.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#28
hard to trust any of the two main parties on this subject, at least with ukip and the yellows they make it clear where they stand.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
#29
Barry - you must know that conviction (or much honesty) doesn't play a role in the Labour Party, otherwise we wouldn't have ended up where we are with this debt around our necks that we're suffering from.
Tony Blair or Gordon Brown didn't have any real conviction in any of their policies, just a wish to stay in power; they detached themselves from the working man and the working-class man, years ago. I don't Ed. Minibrain is much better - he's working for the unions.
Roger
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
#30
and whats wrong with ed working for the unions roger,ed milliband is just reconecting to the hard pressed working people.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
#31
Cobblers Brian.
Roger
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
#32
The unions do not represent 'hard working people' - they represent in the main the public sector, very few people in the private sector are unionised these days. That means the Unions are just looking out for a factional interest. Most hard working people want nothing to do with the Unions.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
#33
roger,you can get pills for that [cobblers that is].and in any case cameron is disconecting from the public so much he and osborne are becomeing isolated.
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
#34
Yes there was some talk of Labour including an opportunity for a referendum, they may regret it later if they do, as Salmon has in Scotland. Not that it is a foregone conclusion that a referendum would be lost.
But the fluctuating mood swing on Europe is almost amusing. A while ago we were being told by eurosceptic eurphobes that we dont need the EU, our trade with them is only minimal said they, and not significant. We can live without them etc etc....
Now these same europhobes, when homegrown performance is just plain bad, have changed that particular tune, now suddenly the EU is all toooo important...that our dire straits is all the fault of our trading conditions with the very same...which wasnt all that important a short while ago. Now it seems, it is everything!
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
#35
That is a very strange interpretation.
We do not need to be members of the EU to trade with the EU, an EFTA style arrangement would do just as well. Switzerland and Norway have no problems trading with the EU. The fact is that 40% of our trade is with the EU and there is no reason for it to change if we were not members. In fact we import more from the EU than we export so it is not in the interests of the EU to be difficult in that sense.
Because we have 40% of our trade with the EU what happens there is important. A fact. The Eurozone problems, caused by over-reaching politicians trying to circumvent the democratic will of the people to force a Federal Europe, is causing us serious economic difficulty. The only real solution is to dismantle the structure that is failing and causing the problems, the Euro.
It is only the vanity and pride of the Euromaniac politicians that stands in the way of a sensible way forward. The 25% unemployed in Spain and Greece, among others, are being sacrificed for the benefit of the monstrous ambitions of the Euromaniacs.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#36
when i first started work 40% of our trade was with the eec,.then there were 8 other countries.
still the same but with 20 odd countries.
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
#37
I think the EU trade is at roughly at the 50% level but percentages fluctuate depending on who you listen to. Most politicians are currently on TV saying half of all our trade is with the EU....it suits to say that right now because they can blame the fact that we are in recession on an easy Eurozone culprit. Other times the percentage goes down to fit the argument...
Where is the UKIP argument now for example where we can replace EU trade with Commonwealth trading. That was a no-hoper for a start. No one grasping that particular nettle?
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#38
the countries that make up the european union will trade with each other irrespective of whether the union exists or not.
trade is down to selling price, transit times, quality etc, no country currently in the e.u. would start putting up import tariffs.
let's not forget that we are a nett importer.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
#39
PaulB - no, there is no suggestion of replacing EU trade with Commonwealth trade, we shot that horse when we ratted on them and joined the EEC, there is no need to replace it at all as it will not disappear when we leave the EU. But, and its an important but, there is a whole wide world out there to trade with and we need to increase our trade with other countries (through growing our economy not replacing the EU trade) so as not to be overly dependent on the sick economies of Europe.
Guest 683- Registered: 11 Feb 2009
- Posts: 1,052
#40
These discussions gain ground when people feel anxious about things such as the economy, jobs etc but I don't believe there is any real groundswell for getting out of the EU.
Blaming the foreigners for all our ills is a national sport. I wonder if it's too late to get it into the Olympics......
