Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Bern - look at the figures they speak for themselves, there is a balance and that balance went much too far with an open door. Look too at the economy, 13 years of poor economic management by the government, much of it pure incompetence and much well intentioned stupidity, placed us in an appalling position at the start of the economic downturn in 2007 leading to our biggest ever bust. The situation we are now in demands that we must look after our own first and foremost, the consequences of not doing so would be a disaster socially as well as economically. I agree there is an enlightened self-interest too in helping other countries but we can best do so from a position of economic strength regained not from weakness.
But none of that means there has to be an extreme choice between extremes. And if we are looking after our own, I assume that implies human beings? Behaving compassionately does not imply holding an open wallet at the borders, it implies a compassionately developed strategy that respects global humanity.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
i seem to remember hearing that people from the new europe would not be eligible for benefits.
that did not last long, just adds to further social unrest.
Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
BarryW.
For someone who earns his living sticking close to the legalities of the law, do you not think you a being hypocritical regarding the 98% immigrants that are getting what they are legally entitled to?
I think that immigration is in a mess, like benefits and the NHS and there are ways to improve it.
Allowing only genuine case's into the country would be a start, cons did promise they would reduce this figure but it has increased.
Having said that, blaming immigrants for the woes of this country is wrong. The majority of them are simply doing what many of us would do if we were in their position,which is taking care of their family.
Diana.
Saying the lazy would get off their backsides, if there were fewer immigrants, simply would not happen. That is a benefit problem not an immigration one.
It was the introduction of Agencies that has fed off the immigrant's acceptance of casual work, freeing up employer's working contracts, that have led to our employment problems. That again is not the immigrants at fault.
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
Try using the word support instead of benefits. "Benefits" has become a term of abuse and contributes to that social unrest.
Can I just point out that nothing I say or believe implies an open "benefits" wallet. Just a more compassionate and less hysterical way of looking at those who are, in fact, no more or less than our fellow human beings with all the complexity and back story that is implied in that.
GaryC, our posts overlapped. Nice one - thank you for that!
Guest 664- Registered: 23 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,039
There may be a global economy but that does not mean we should have to suffer this burden which we simply cannot afford. Meanwhile I am sorry that people in some parts of the world have no clean water for example, and have given money in the past to help them. That does not mean that this country can and should be responsible for solving all world problems.
Sorry, I must have missed the bit where that was suggested......
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
GaryC - No-one blames the immigrants. I certainly do not, I blame our government for its open door policies and it would be wrong to blame people who just take advantage of our stupidity.
You also miss my point. I am saying that the 98% should not be here at all, well at least most of them should not. The reason why they (plus the other 2% plus others who are not themselves on benefit but are in jobs British people might take) are here now is because of the changes made in 1997 that opened the floodgates as part of a deliberate policy that never should have been enacted. It is nothing to do with them being here legitimately under the current rules, its the current rules that are wrong.
Bern - you suggested that previously, Andrew read what I read and we clearly thought the same.
"That does not mean that this country can and should be responsible for solving all world problems. " I do not recall ever suggesting that this country can and should be responsible for solving all the world problems. I have suggested that we should bear some responsibility in partnership with other nations. I am afraid i still do not see a problem with that.
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
I am left wondering here, what it is the complainants want. Blaming immigrants for being in jobs that could go to some definition of 'natives? A lot, if not most, are doing jobs that fall below the minimum wage and most "British" people would not do. At times of economic stability (a relative term at best) immigrants are welcomed with open arms precisely to do the jobs no one here wants to do.
What is it the complainants want? Do we stop supporting them, let them starve, sleep on the streets and beg here in our civilised nation? Do they want to start shipping them back, often to unsafe destinations, now that we don't need them to do the jobs no one wants for wages no one would accept?
I am sure we will hear calls to scrap the minimum wage with the claim that it will make us "more competitive", when all it would really do is cause more unrest. Why should it cause unrest? Because "British" people have gotten used to not doing those jobs, even the idea of starting at the bottom of a company and working your way up is now an out-dated concept. Whether or not it should be is not a factor because the reality is what we have to work with.
There are faults in the support system and "British" as well as "non-British" claimants do make use of that but it does not reduce the morality of a duty of care. Far easier to find someone to blame than it is to take the time to properly assess the faults and catch the real criminals. Given the percentages there are likely to be far more "British" making fraudulent claims than there are "non-British".
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
Bern .......your patients is supreme.......keep taking the wheels of the bandwagon.
# 12..spot on..however,hopefully,the blame game is at last beginning to lose momentum.
# 24 ...spot on
# 30...spot on....
The basic fact is immigration is good for Britain.........we have to learn,accept to take the rough with the smooth as we
do with the NHS and everything in life.................we must always try to improve the rough bits.....not seat back and
moan about it.
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,894
I agree with a little of nearly all the above posts. The problem as I see it is we are such a small island we can not accept many more immigrants either working or on benefits, we will run out of money and land.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
the main problem with immigration is that new comers are usually housed in areas where is enough strain on schools, hospitals and other vital services.
the leafy suburbs are mainly not affected.
The main problem...?! I think that first of all there isn't a main problem! And second if there is, it lies in the gutter press and mildly intellectually challenged who cannot see past the superficial.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Bern you should not label those who disagree with you as 'mildly intellectually challenged'. That is beneath you.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
I know Peter, but I was, with a struggle, restraining my pressing need to use barrack room language.............
Sigh.........
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
So how do we discharge our duty to the world's persecuted peoples without risking becoming a human dustbin? Surely we would all agree that there are many out there who want to come to Britain for criminal purposes? How can we distinguish between genuine people in need and the rest?
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
feel free to insult me in any way you wish bern.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Drop the 'mildly', Bern!
I am saving up to buy Howard a Shift key.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Bern you are turning into the stereotype lefty. I know you are not really one of those 'morally superior poseurs' that are so common on the left who frankly need to be locked up for their own safety and that of others.