Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Charity UK is in a sad condition indeed, soft-touch land UK.com takes in just about everyone that turns the corner, from those who on arrival rip up their passport and throw it in the airport litter-bin in front of the UKBA office, or down the aeroplane's loo before descending at Heathrow, to the happy tourist from Asia and Africa who decides to sod the holiday visa and roll into the benefits-office.
Some-one in Dover recently stopped me in the street and asked the way to the immigration benefits office, so I said there was none and explained the way to Eastern Docks, telling him to catch a ferry.
IT ISN'T ABOUT PARTY POLITICS!!!! Some things aren't.
It is about a very basic compassion for others. Peter, your point is very valid - I meet daily people who have arrived here with the specific intent of hiding from their own judiciary and milking our system. Over all, they are a tiny minority, because I meet the others too, the abused and traumatised with the most appalling and genuine backstory. It is a risk, but a small one, and as I have said to Alex on the other similar thread about immigrant children, actually, once these people are in the system and being seen and spoken with it really isn't hard to spot the difference. The problem lies, as it often does, with first of all the immensely complex legal systems here and abroad - some countries will simply not take back some ne'er do wells - and with the lily livered social workers and out of touch psychs who are so easily tricked. Always have been! In the real world (ie not Social Services of psych land) there are some options, and some people who are dedicated to "spotting" the difference and managing it.
PS - I would run to a shift key for howard.......
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
LOL well done Alexander....
Which particular stereotype are you buying into today, chaps? Because whether you like it or not you have been hooked, line and sinker, by the tabloids. And they are, indeed, motivated b y party politics.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
We moved on from the party political bit as to how we got in this position and its now about how we deal with it. My half joking comment on my last post had no party political mention, we have some dumb lefties even in the Conservatives
.
But the point some of us are making is that we must not be a dumping ground for the world. We do not owe them a living and simply cannot take on all their problems. We have to look after ourselves first. I am not against helping out but a long term solution must be found and they must be part of that solution in their own countries.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
In some cases Bern, particularly with the forced child sex workers, they are not escaping their persecutors by coming here, as the persecutors got here ahead of them. We are in danger of creating an immigrant criminal underworld which our law enforcement agencies are on the one hand culturally unable to infiltrate, and on the other hand unable to challenge because of the PC racist accusations which will follow if they try. All because our admission criteria are inexcusably lax. To add insult to injury, we can't deport an EU citizen unless he has been sentenced to more than a year in jail.
The same applies in spades to the way certain communities keep their women out of sight and force them into marriages against their will.
I don't claim to know the answer. Who does?
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Bern, shouting won't help. We can't even financially afford to do what you propose, our services are full up with immigrants already. And you just want us to import millions more?
So what in 10 years time, and then in 20 years? We would be just importing milions every few years, until we have 200 million people living here, then 250 million...
You might find it better to shout at the societies where these children live, and tell them to stop sticking them in uniforms and placing guns in their hands.
Are you really serious Bern about importing all these children...?
"But the point some of us are making is that we must not be a dumping ground for the world. We do not owe them a living and simply cannot take on all their problems. We have to look after ourselves first. I am not against helping out but a long term solution must be found and they must be part of that solution in their own countries."
1 - "ourselves" does probably include other humans
2 - I am a little alarmed at the term "solution"
3 - we do indeed owe them a living if they are vulnerable, abused or in fear of their lives. otherwise what is the $£**&^*** point at all?
Forgive the slightly raised blood pressure!!
Peter - I share your concerns, but to whip up a bunch of negativity about entire populations will not help.
Alex. I give up.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
1. 'We' also includes people in other wealthy countries, not just Britain.
2. Very subtle and very, very naughty.
3. Key word is 'if'. What tests do we apply? You can be in fear of your life in South Africa if you owe a moneylender 500 rand.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Indeed you are right about 1 and I have never said otherwise. It is our moral duty to work in partnership to eradicate poverty and support the abused and vulnerable. That goes for everyone, not just the UK! I don't have a problem with the "if" in 3, Peter. Everything is relative, but abused is abused, fear is fear, and vulnerable is vulnerable whatever the cause and whatever the culture.
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
there has been some realy good and varied posts
and to show reg and i don't always agree on this subject i feel we need to find a way forward.
i offer no solutions but i also feel this one guy quite clearly anti the uk why should he be allowed to remain?
i don't believe in this an eye for an eye idea
but this guy needs deporting.
as brian says we cannot keep going back and blaming labour
as always the tories hoodwinked people in making promises to remove people from the country when in fact the figures are rising
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
This particular thread is not about children or about terrorists staying here, it is simply about over 370,000 immigrants now on benefit because they have lost their job.
Many European countries have rules that if you cannot afford to live there, you have to go back to your own country for them to pay you benefits until you can get a job.
Why should we be any different ? Perhaps there may be a different case if you have taken out citizenship of that country, perhaps even permanent residence, but surely not just move for a job, lose it and then have all the benefits.
Roger
Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
There are areas that I can agree with BarryW and Peter. There are immigrants that should not have been allowed in and there are some, especially in our prisons that should be deported but the numbers are few and should not stir up all this unrest by challenging the majority, that genuinely need our help.
The press are blowing the figures up just to cause a stir.
I worked with immigration for a while and it really opens your eyes.
Bern is right, it is really simple, when you see the genuine refugees coming into this country, I challenge anyone not to feel compassion and the natural want to help them and help them we should, even if it is millions. You cannot fake what is clearly in their eyes and their expressions.
This is not a lefty thing it is a moral issue.
Alex.
I agree that famine and such like is the responsibility of the authorities and the people from those countries.
But £millions have been streaming into Africa for the last thirty years, suposedly, for wells, pumps, irrigation and such like. Yet we are still seeing adverts of little children dying of thirst. Why is that?
So on one hand I certainly agree that something has to be done by those in these countries or we as a country, should force them to do the right thing but you cannot abandon those that are fleeing for their lives and need our help.
It is also just as easy to see the chancers and the other potential nasty immigrants that should be put straight back on the boat.
Yes, that should have been resolved by the last Labour Gov but they are not in power now and after all the promises, still nothing is being done, so instead of keep harping on about who started it like demented school kids, lets get the Gov that is in power, to sort it out.
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
Guest 688- Registered: 16 Jul 2009
- Posts: 268
Just two percent of the total are not entitled to support.I think the question needs to be asked who presented it this way and what is their agenda.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
There is one particular question that Gary asks that indeed should be asked.
How, despite the may £billions of aid poured into Africa, is there no apparent improvement?
One agency a couple of years ago suggested that the problem was aide itself... Why pull your socks up and get on and find a solution if you can get a whole load of money for nothing? They actually said that we would help Africa more by stop sending in aide, apart from emergency relief that is. They may have a good point.
Whatever some of you say we cannot carry on the way we have with these high levels of immigration - it has to stop and has gone too far, we are a small island and it places intolerable pressure on our society.
Those two things should not be run together. Addressing the cultural issues that prevent the African nations from developing properly is a priority, but should be separated from the other domestic agenda. And culturally, supporting nations to develop and empowering rather than just giving is a delicate balance. The Big Issue has it right: a hand up not a hand out. But how to do that while the powerless people starve is a major challenge.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
"Those two things should not be run together. Addressing the cultural issues that prevent the African nations from developing properly is a priority, but should be separated from the other domestic agenda".
Bern, please put this into Plain English for those of us who are not used to a daily diet of gobbledygook.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
