Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
howard;
not sure of the great and good bit.
but at the time it was a taboo subject
but as people that know me are aware im not one sit back if there issues out there
and i was in conflict often with the mp and labour party
but that didnt stop me supporting locals who wanted to see some changes
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The cowardice of our elected and paid reps should not be used as a reason to create a negative environment for the discussion about immigration. I really don't see why it has to be that extreme of "it's all good" or "it's all bad". Unless you read the tabloids,of course.
I found Andrews post the opposite of balanced in that it fed directly off the perceived negativity and chose instead to focus on the apparent "injustice" done to natives and the lack of discussion about the entire package regarding immigrants, who by the very nature of immigration are diverse and contain many very different groups and individuals. It was just a re-hash of the determination of some, especially tabloid types, to decline to discuss because the discussion has been previously hijacked or challenging. We genuinely need to get over that (and ignore tha appalling lead offered, for example, by Gordon Brown, who cut off the conversation by referring to someone raising legitimate concerns by calling her a bigot!!!!) and have a proper conversation.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
yes bern
the daily mail in those days, and even recently
have a lot to answer for
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Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,707
Yes there needs to be a proper conversation free of misconceptions and misinformation on both sides.
There needs to be a recognition of the benefit to the UK over the centuries of immigration and how that benefit is ongoing in both economic and cultural terms, there also needs to be a recognition of the needs of the existing population, including the descendants of previous immigrants :-) and finally we need to consider what our obligations and responsibilities are.
We can then hopefully reach a sensible accommodation that allows for ongoing migration with sensible controls around skills, numbers etc.
None of this removes or precludes our obligation to provide safe haven for those genuinely in need of asylum.
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Ross, I can only agree with all of your post!!!
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
We also need a few members to emerge from the local immigrant community to balance the views expressed on here. With the best will in the world, none of us white Anglo-Saxons or Celts knows what it's like to live in Dover and be culturally a fish out of water.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
peter;
whilst chairing the priory forum
i invited in the very days migrant helpline and 2 asylum seekers who had been shot in there own country who gave an outline of there life there and life now
surprizingly they were hap;py t the welcome they gor from most people
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howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
rather different keith, you are talking about asylum seekers - no doubt the ones you refer to are genuine and deserving of our protection.
nowadays it is about incomers and the vast majority show no interest in joining in anything.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
Your last sentence is very appropriate to the Priory part of the ward Howard. I wouldn't necessarily say they cause trouble (unless you know different of course) but certainly don't contribute/integrate into the community and don't seem to want to learn English.
Maybe many of them are transitory, so are not here for long.
Roger
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
no major problems at the moment roger.
i would add that local organisations put appropriate translations on all leaflets put through doors to encourage all to join in and the pre school two doors from me has all their posters and advice leaflets the same.
maybe sheila can add something to this?
Guest 664- Registered: 23 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,039
well I would have been amazed if you had liked my post Bern.
I often am grateful for the contribution immigrants have made to my life personally - from the dentist who was trained abroad only for me to be able to use his services, to the agricultural workers who pick the fruit and vegetables to put on the table, to the driver of the Tube train, to the workers at the Indian or Chinese restaurant. Just to name some examples. Even this forum would not exist but for a son of Dublin who chose to make his home in Dover!
Ironically it seems we want the same thing - i.e. a balanced debate and ongoing well-managed immigration. What makes _me_ angry is that people have for many years now been unfairly labelled racist for wanting to discuss the subject.
Moreover I recall reading that the Left admitted to wanting to "rub the Right's noses in diversity"with their policies in the Blair years - what's balanced about that, if true?
And what does it have to do with now? We learn and we grow.
Guest 664- Registered: 23 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,039
Quite a bit actually as we are dealing with the backwash. Meanwhile, as an aside, I have had to deal with a fair bit of not-so-friendly comments over my lifetime based on my 50 per cent German heritage, although I was born and raised in the UK. Feeling attacked and being made to feel one -down over one's origins is not exclusively the burden of non-whites.
EDIT: In the words of Basil Fawlty, we could be having this conversation for the rest of out lives. I'll leave the floor to others as the new week begins. Bern and others, thankyou for an interesting discussion.
Roger, what have your started? ;)
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
superb post again andrew we all have a mixed background no excuse for making an issue of it.
roger is to blame as always, whenever he initiates a debate furore follows closely behind.
well done roger.
Guest 725- Registered: 7 Oct 2011
- Posts: 1,418
I think people are missing the point here. Regardless of our decision to opt out of the Schengen agreement we have virtually no control over our borders. In fact we have very little power to pass our own laws. We are now a parish of the eu superstate and year by year power is steadily being drained away from our Parliament which means that ordinary people have very little effect on what goes on in general.
We can complain all we like, go on demonstrations, lobby, plead with our elected representatives but in the end it amounts to nothing.
Better get used to it especially now that Cameron is Edward Heath resurrected.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
with regard howard to these days as you say the problems roger highlights don't exist so not a problem.
My reply was to peter's post on trying to get the views of the people themselves on living in England.
Yes we need a balanced debate,
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Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
Good post Andrew. It is very rare that you could start a discussion on immigration (on here or anywhere) without someone calling you a racist; I guess that was purely because they didn't want it discussed in a rational way.
Too many people also get offended on behalf of others (who actually are NOT offended) and that has always concerned me
I don't know whether we have grown up since then, but we all have different views about immigration and immigrants, but that will depend to a certain degree, on those immigrants themselves - whether they are skilled; speak English, have a good work ethic, want to integrate - or whether they are illegals; come here just to milk the system and have no intention of learning English, or integrating into society.
There's also another group, who have, through niaivety maybe, been brought into England illegally by people smugglers and then end up working 14 or more hours a day and are subject to all sorts of abuse.
I put a joke on here because it made me laugh and I wanted to share it with others because I thought it might make them laugh too. I got castigated in the Press - national and local, on TV and radio as well as on here.
When I analysed the joke (maybe I should have beforehand ?), it wasn't about immigration or racism at all, but about people's perception of the Governments policy on immigration - that immigrants get everything and the English get nothing: a view still held by many.
Roger
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
ROGER;
You realy need to move away from that joke, as the issue is far wider than that as you are aware.
far more complex.
With regard to integration, we should also look at this in a wider picture, we should not blame immigrants or whatever the term is these days for not intergrating when locals have gone out of there way, not to make these people welcome, or discouraged any intergration.
Whilst on the council intergration did come up many times and groups of immigrants tried to integrate but they came up against massive opposition from local groups.
Thats not to say there shouldn't be more intergration, but in more general terms we have a society that in these days people look after number 1 things like street parties a thing of the past, community spirit etc.
many community groups try to keep the community spirit going and do a good job.
so in my humble view the problem is far wider than is proposed in the original post
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Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
Your comments Keith epitomise exactly why people cannot have a rational discussion on immigration.
I explained exactly what that joke was about and it is no wider than how I explained it, so your comment Keith was completely unnecessary.
I used that "joke" to illustrate how people can misunderstand (sometimes on purpose), even a simple message that is put in the form of a joke - and you have obviously misunderstood it, whether on purpose or not I don't know - maybe you are trying to make me out to be a racist - is that the meaning behind your post ??
Roger
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
ROGER;
It's not for me to form any kind of view on your postings the forum is made up of many differing views, and when you post and the national/local media mke you out to be different than what you feel they should then that to is all part of being in the limelight.
My reply was just to say, looking at the wording it could been seen as racist, if your saying it's not then ok thats your view.
what we do need is reasonable debate that will help to solve problems
hopefully in the future this can happen
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