Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,658
Vic Matcham wrote:If you can fight in the Army at the age of 18 then you should vote if you wish to.
Very true Vic, if someone has the right to lay down their life for their country they should have the right to vote for the idiot who allowed that to happen.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
Two years people went into a panic over the prospect of 50 Scottish MPs holding the reins of power yet now we have 10 from Northern Ireland and it seems to be accepted readily. They are pro Brexit but want an open border with the Irish Republic.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40217141Captain Haddock- Location: Marlinspike Hall
- Registered: 8 Oct 2012
- Posts: 7,482
Vic Matcham wrote:If you can fight in the Army at the age of 18 then you should vote if you wish to.
Brilliant. So the ability to follow simple orders, fire a gun an march in step gives one the maturity, experience and understanding to take part in the electoral process?
It will only take a few years technological progress and you'll be giving the vote to bloody drones!
You honestly believe that it should be those who have put little if anything into society in terms of tax should decide how much they should be allowed to take out of society in terms of stuff paid for by others?
'If no one went no faster than what I do there'd be a sight less trouble in this world'
Neil Moors- Registered: 3 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,227
Surprised by this result. Interesting times ahead and surely another election soon, no matter the lack of appetite for one.
My overriding positive thought - this is where the British electorate stuck two fingers up to the Daily Mail. For that alone, I am delighted.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
Captain Haddock wrote:Brilliant. So the ability to follow simple orders, fire a gun an march in step gives one the maturity, experience and understanding to take part in the electoral process?
It will only take a few years technological progress and you'll be giving the vote to bloody drones!
Why would someone of 21 or over who has shown no interest in the economy, defence of the realm and all the other things that our elected betters do on our behalf be better qualified than an 18 year old that has read up on such things?
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howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
Neil Moors wrote:Surprised by this result. Interesting times ahead and surely another election soon, no matter the lack of appetite for one.
My overriding positive thought - this is where the British electorate stuck two fingers up to the Daily Mail. For that alone, I am delighted.
The Sun, Express and Mirror gave biased messages but the days of people just following what the owners tell them to do are over. Mail readers are natural Tories anyway and think that most of the country are on benefits of £100,000 a year with immigrants getting much the same.
Captain Haddock- Location: Marlinspike Hall
- Registered: 8 Oct 2012
- Posts: 7,482
howard mcsweeney1 wrote:Why would someone of 21 or over who has shown no interest in the economy, defence of the realm and all the other things that our elected betters do on our behalf be better qualified than an 18 year old that has read up on such things?
Obviously not. Personally I would not give the vote to half of the over 21 year olds as putting it bluntly they don't have the intelligence to analyse the political choices unless they are put in dumbed down tabloid speak or with 'leaders' debates' on TV. We are however where we are and an age cut off seems to be the popular compromise.
I still view 18-21 year olds having the vote as the equivalent of my children telling how much I should spend on them at Christmas without them taking into account my salary or other outgoings such as shelter, food and heat. After all I do run the fifth richest household on the road don't I?
'If no one went no faster than what I do there'd be a sight less trouble in this world'
Button- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 2,902
I agree with Mr Vic; expecting people to pay the ultimate sacrifice if needs be and upon command to defend what passes for democracy around here, but not allow them to participate in said democracy leaves me feeling as sick as a Parrett.
(Not my real name.)
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,658
Sounds like what the Captain really means is nobody who does not vote for his chosen party regardless of their age or their ability to use their brain power should vote.
On a more serious note three out of my five grandchildren knew what they were talking about, the other two showed no interest in politics so I doubt they would even bother to vote. Not all of our youth are "dumbed down" which is something politicians need to accept.
To expand the argument.
I would prefer to see an educated young person sitting in the Commons to some doddery old fool who survives just because they are in a safe seat.
.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Button- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 2,902
Post 879: I hope people did vote for Brexit last year - it's just occurred to me that some may have been simply voting against Cameron, which would make Brexit a non-issue, if you see what I mean.
If they did vote for Brexit, then it seems that either it's no longer an over-riding priority or else it's seen as being all done and dusted. Personally I blame soap operas, where characters meet, conceive, give birth, marry, dally, divorce and die (sometimes more than once), all within the space of about 6 episodes and an omnibus.
I don't know which scenario appalls me the more and I wonder if Cameron and May placed too much faith in rational voting.
(Not my real name.)
Guest 1881- Registered: 16 Oct 2016
- Posts: 1,071
Captain Haddock wrote:Obviously not. Personally I would not give the vote to half of the over 21 year olds as putting it bluntly they don't have the intelligence to analyse the political choices unless they are put in dumbed down tabloid speak or with 'leaders' debates' on TV. We are however where we are and an age cut off seems to be the popular compromise.
I still view 18-21 year olds having the vote as the equivalent of my children telling how much I should spend on them at Christmas without them taking into account my salary or other outgoings such as shelter, food and heat. After all I do run the fifth richest household on the road don't I?
Across the pond, we are also hearing this type of democratic exclusionism.
Suspicion of the democratic system is driven by the fear that white Christian America is facing demographic doom.
https://newrepublic.com/article/138019/right-giving-democracy
You only have to look at the paper press's declining/plummeting sales figures to understand that the tabloid press isn't necessarily the route to inform the 21+ generation.
While I get your second paragraph, why is it not acceptable for the 18-21 year olds to have their opinions heard about the country that they wish to live in? (Assuming we accept your summary of them as accurate.)
Just because you don't take an interest in politics doesn't mean that politics won't take an interest in you. PERICLES.
Neil Moors- Registered: 3 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,227
There is no difference between a younger voter not voting Tory because the other lot have promised them free University places - and an older voter not voting Tory because they fear the removal of their winter fuel payment or the cost of social care. Self interest in both cases. More generally, you can clearly see a generational gulf opening in British politics.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
Guest 1881- Registered: 16 Oct 2016
- Posts: 1,071
Neil Moors wrote:There is no difference between a younger voter not voting Tory because the other lot have promised them free University places - and an older voter not voting Tory because they fear the removal of their winter fuel payment or the cost of social care. Self interest in both cases. More generally, you can clearly see a generational gulf opening in British politics.
What about the parents of university-age students? Aren't they attracted by the idea of tuition fee abolition? Aren't they the people that wish to leave their children a financial legacy when they shuffle off to the choir invisible?
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Just because you don't take an interest in politics doesn't mean that politics won't take an interest in you. PERICLES.
Neil Moors- Registered: 3 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,227
Yes, I agree entirely. Voters will vote for the party who they believe will present them with the best possible future - young and old.
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Button- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 2,902
Or the biggest bribe.
(Not my real name.)
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
What still puzzles me was the inflexibility of the Tory campaign team. It became clear very early on that Mrs May had absolutely no personality but made the election all about her rather than the party. The other parties all saw this and raised their game and talked about issues and what they would do if voted in. It then got worse when she issued the manifesto without telling anyone outside her circle which left MPs fielding questions on the doorstep which they weren't prepared for. Attacking Corbyn all the time about possible terrorist links was another vote loser as it has been tried before on others and it tends to backfire when the target comes across as a decent bloke on the telly.
In summing up the arrogance of the PM has lost her party a number of MPs through no fault of their own.
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Guest 2060- Registered: 19 Apr 2017
- Posts: 76
Button.The Brexit issue was the excuse by Mrs May to bolster her position .
She and the Tories forgot the bread and butter issues. The recent NHS crisis and cuts to Police. Also schools and housing.After the Terrorist attacks, the light was shone the police cuts.There was a lack of empathy by May to the Victims.Police and NHS staff.Cruella?
A more savvy politician would have promised increased pay and conditions to the police, NHS, staff in respect of the aftermath of the outrages.
The main own goal was winter fuel payment stopped and the dementia tax.
You don't penalise your core vote.
I did say during the election campaign that the Tories were complacent,possibly arrogant.Letting loose the rabid attack dogs of the Mail.Do not win elections
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
and that's student power howard.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
and witch leads us to here.
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