Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
How do you think our local MP should vote?Should he vote the way his party want him to,?Or should he vote the way the most of the voters of Dover would like him to? Or as he said on the TV last night he is voting to stay in because he does not want to see them all camping in Dover?if we come out of the EU, which would not happen anyway in my way of thinking.
I could be wrong but I think he is voting to stay in the EU because he is a paid wip +if he votes for coming out that will stop him from going up the ladder in his party.
Or like some of the public he is voting to stay in because he think that is the best way to go.? If it is the last one on the list then OK ,but I do not think that is the case.
What do you think?
Paul M- Registered: 1 Feb 2016
- Posts: 393
I think he is doing what is right for him and he couldn't give a toss what his constituents think. That said he has made a good point about moving the juxtaposed border controls back to Dover. There is a real chance of that happening.
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
Thank you for your view sir I think along the same lines a part from the border issue.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
The bookies have the "Remain" people as odds on favourites and they are usually right as they have to be to survive. The way I see it is that the UK has opened "Pandora's box" with other countries who are now questioning the wisdom of being in the EU. The refugee/migrant problem has brought differences to the fore, when the newer members joined in 2004(I think) no referendums were held as it was seen that only financial benefits would follow so loss of sovereignty didn't seem that important. We look now and see walls and fences being built, migrants being stripped of their valuables in some countries, more border controls and only set numbers being admitted to most states.
The EU is on its way out and will do well just to stay as a single market.
Guest 1694- Registered: 24 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,087
Mr Elphicke, in this situation, is just another member of the UK electorate placing his single vote for the choice that he has made in relation to EU membership. My own belief is that he has taken more of a risk with his Parliamentary career by declaring in favour of an 'In' vote in this constituency than he would have done by declaring for 'Out'. That balance of risk would have been different in a different constituency. So, in this instance, I am inclined to believe that he has declared for the option that he thinks is best for the UK.
It is nice that Mr Elphicke has let us know which way he will be voting and has given us some explanation as to why he has chosen to vote that way, but, in the end, it is his choice for his vote, just as it will be my choice for how I cast my vote. For this referendum he can, and should, be allowed to choose and vote as an individual whether his constituents or his political party agree with him or not.
Just like the ECJ will do with the UK-EU deal, Mr Elphicke has undoubtedly taken the views of his constituents into consideration when coming to his decision (Mr Vic - this is a pointed comment about the legally binding nature of the deal that Mr Cameron reached with his fellow EU leaders).
I had hoped, but not expected, for Mr Cameron to ask for something truly significant and fundamental to be changed - like the terms of Maastricht or Lisbon treaties to be rolled back in whole or in large part - but he only asked for relatively minor things and didn't get them in full either. We hear that an exemption from ever closer union for the UK is a fantastic outcome, but all that does is to maintain us in our current situation, Maastricht and Lisbon Treaties, and the closer union that they facilitated, still apply. To my mind, Maastricht was already a treaty too far and Lisbon was worse. I am glad to at last have a real and direct say in the future of my country in the EU and will definitely be down the polling station casting my vote on the day.
The stuff being pushed about our referendum vote determining whether or not the bi-lateral border treaty with France is maintained is essentially rubbish - border controls will stay as is or revert to how they were prior to the treaty depending on which political party controls most influence in Paris. In short, the treaty principally stands or falls on changes to policy in Paris, which in turn will be decided by French voters in French elections.
Guest 977- Registered: 27 Jun 2013
- Posts: 1,031
Neil, you are right that Charlie has only one vote in this, the same as the rest of us.
However, it is being reported today that instructions have been issued by David Cameron that government resources can be used by ministers who wish to campaign to remain in, but not by those that want to leave, hardly a level playing field where the various issues can be discussed openly and fully. (I know he is not a minister but his whip post means making sure MPs follow the party line.)
So will Charlie like the rest of us just be voting, or will he be campaigning using government resources and information to stay in? His statement suggests the latter, and my suspicion is that is not what the majority of his constituents (or local party members who select him as candidate) will want to happen.
Paul M- Registered: 1 Feb 2016
- Posts: 393
The Government's position is clear in that the UK should remain in the EU, the Conservative party is split on the matter but it is for the Government to dictate policy and for the Civil Service to implement individual policies. Therefore the PM is entirely right to use the Civil Service to implement his policy which is to remain.
The deal the PM has agreed with the EU is not in my opinion legally binding as Neil states. Only a full Treaty is legally binding and the Agreement can be easily picked apart by the European Court.
On the Le Touquet agreement I agree it will be a matter of French policy to continue or to rip it up but if this Summer is anything like last year, Paris may well use the excuse of the UK no longer being part of the EU to say enough is enough and to end the bilateral agreement. It's always been in our interest to have our controls at Calais, the French don't really benefit from it at all.
Bob Whysman
- Registered: 23 Aug 2013
- Posts: 1,937
Paul M wrote:I think he is doing what is right for him and he couldn't give a toss what his constituents think. That said he has made a good point about moving the juxtaposed border controls back to Dover. There is a real chance of that happening.
If we stay in the EU there is no guarantee that the juxtaposed border controls will stay at Calais anyway Paul; there is always the 'threat' that they could be removed. There is also a strong likelihood that migrants/ terrorists once issued with EU passports would come to the UK, en masse, quite legitimately.
Europe's security has already been breached and the final scenario has yet to be played out, so that any scaremongering on this issue should be avoided. We need to look for alternative solutions to ensure our security and future prosperity other than Calais border controls.
We should take off the blinkers and become autonomous once again in our dealings as many others within the EU already do. So long as we meekly bankroll those in Brussels they will continue to exercise their controls over us.
Forward is the future, history is the past........come the 23rd June that's the choice we have to vote on.
Do nothing and nothing happens.
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
Thank you to you all for some very good posts on both sides and give us all someing to think about as for myself it is still to come out,we was a great nation before we went in trading with the world and members of the then EU which we was not in at that time.And the UN is the group that looks after the defence issue.
Guest 977- Registered: 27 Jun 2013
- Posts: 1,031
Paul M wrote:The Government's position is clear in that the UK should remain in the EU, the Conservative party is split on the matter but it is for the Government to dictate policy and for the Civil Service to implement individual policies. Therefore the PM is entirely right to use the Civil Service to implement his policy which is to remain.
That's correct on normal government business, but this is a national referendum and other rules might apply. He was asked at PMQs by Owen Paterson if he was happy that this didn't breach equal opportunity legislation - which might bizarrely even lead to an appeal to the ECJ once the official Leave organisation has been decided.
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
At my age I do not think it matters that much if we stay in or come out but I will still be voting to come out.The UK can still make it on its own ,our history shows we are at our best when our backs are against the wall ,we have been a nation of leaders not followers so lets get on with it vote for coming out and lets see the UK once again being a world leader
Bob Whysman- Registered: 23 Aug 2013
- Posts: 1,937
Do nothing and nothing happens.
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
I must say I did not think about the rock and what would happen to it if we pull out of the Eu ,but my view is still for coming out we had the rock before we went in and it was looked after so the same would be if we come out.In fact it might get better looked after ,if Spain pulls the plug on the border they will put 12000 on the doll and at this time the public in Spain are not happy in the way they are being treated.
Guest 977- Registered: 27 Jun 2013
- Posts: 1,031
The Moroccans have said if Spain starts talking about taking back Gibraltar, they will want to take back Ceuta from Spain.
Handbags across the Strait!
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
And Melilla.
Neil Moors- Registered: 3 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,299
An enjoyable debate. Here are a few observations:
Spain is always talking about taking Gibraltar back, not directly, but in subtle actions. The usual trick is to slow the border crossing down to a snails pace as and when spats occur. A result to leave the EU would be devastating for Gibraltar as they are extremely reliant on Spain, from daily workforce to commissioning complex healthcare procedures. Every day life will change beyond recognition.
On the subject of healthcare, it would be a shame to see the end of the European Health Insurance Card (EHIC (E111 back in the day)) scheme. That will inevitably lead to many Brits being stranded in Europe, unable to pay for healthcare whilst on holiday and in a related point, travel insurance to Europe for Brits will no doubt rocket in price.
More generally, how about all of the British pensioners living in France? Safe in the knowledge that they receive their pensions and healthcare via some arrangement or other - that arrangement being the coordination of Social Security Regulations, which of course would no longer apply. These people, by and large, will probably be Tory voters. Spain is a separate case - there are 1m Brits living in Spain (some officially, others via less obvious means), all of whom would be affected. I would estimate at least 10 times that visit Spain every year....
All of this could be sorted out via agreement, of course, but that takes time and will - and both will almost certainly be in short supply. Put another way, all of this 'we can survive on our own' stuff with little or no detail needs unpacking. I am yet to see a clear vision of what the alternative would be. It needs clarifying. Look how the falling oil price has impacted Scotland's economy - did they have a good contingency plan?
Turning to the use of Government resources. This point baffles me. The Government is pro Europe, its official position is to remain. It is therefore entirely appropriate to use all Government resources available to it to bring about that desired result. Any suggestion otherwise entirely misses the point.
As for me, I am pro Europe, but not hugely. The migrant crisis has shown Europe to be severely lacking at a time when it should be showing true leadership and usefulness. However, until the leave campaign set out a genuine vision of the future, which goes beyond patriotic chest thumbing, I couldn't consider any other option.
Neil Moors- Registered: 3 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,299
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
Just a short answer for Neil on 37 I Don't see any problems for expatriates in Southern Europe as most are retired or run their own businesses so are no drain on resources and spend money there rather than earn money and send some home. With tourists they mostly take out holiday health insurance before they leave the country. Pensions would be paid by the country where people have paid in. Will come back in more detail in the in/out issue later.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
Sorry forgot to add that Civil Servant info is not to be used for election purposes so it is not government resources.