John Buckley- Registered: 6 Oct 2013
- Posts: 615
I think desperation is setting in if he really believes half of what he says there.
Strange how all these arch remainers have all met and know of loads of people who have supposedly changed their minds about Brexit after previously voting to leave. Personally I don’t know of even one!
However, let’s be honest, what Corbett is really worried about is the fact that in the not too distant future his cushty little number in the EU hierarchy full of perks etc., will soon be coming to an abrupt end!
( couldn’t happen to a nicer bloke by the way!)
howard mcsweeney1 likes this
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
This came up a long while back and no doubt we will reciprocate. I'm all in favour of it as makes it harder for criminals and terrorists although once inside a Schengen member state they are safe.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-traveller-charge-single-market-border-control-visa-european-union-a8321891.htmlray hutstone- Registered: 1 Apr 2018
- Posts: 2,158
Here's an external and independent view on the "desperation" of Corbett, Ken Clarke and so many others. Let's call it "give us the grace to see ourselves as others see us" (part 2). Now where do I find that smug, smiling noddy face emoji that shows I'm the font of all wisdom...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/all-the-worst-lies-about-brexit-are-about-to-be-revealed/2017/09/08/4bf9d43a-9410-11e7-8754-d478688d23b4_story.html?utm_term=.054c9f1cbb6aRoss Miller likes this
John Buckley- Registered: 6 Oct 2013
- Posts: 615
Thing is Ray, sorry Mr Hutstone (if that’s really who you are?) you’re luckier than me because people already know that on here you’re the font of all wisdom whereas unfortunately I need to remind them with an emoji!
( see what I did just there? )
Anyway, I note that the author of your article that you no doubt consider proves “leavers” wrong, Anne Applebaum, has all the right credentials, especially a place at the LSE, nuff said eh?
We all know of the intelligence that stems from that particular institution, perhaps you went there?
Just saying!
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
Wasn't really an external view even if it was in an overseas journal as the author has been based here for some years. Another point to make is that she is a Polish citizen and may share the paranoid view of some of her compatriots here that she will booted out of our sceptic isle.
John Buckley likes this
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
just read a report that states we could have to pay 6 quid for a visa to visit the eu countrys in the future.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
ray hutstone- Registered: 1 Apr 2018
- Posts: 2,158
The easy route is to disparage the writer rather than address the issues the article contains. Brexit is unravelling. It's getting to the point when even its most diehard fans can see that, though precious few will admit it.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
The writer disparaged the issues that ended with a vote to leave the EU without coming up with any real facts and figures so has little credibility.
No surprise as both sides of the coin came out with slogans rather than measured arguments, the surprise was that so many people bothered to vote.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
Barnier the bluffer doesn't mention the importance of fishing rights to many member states after the transitional period.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-single-market-access-theresa-may-pleading-with-eu-a8324086.htmlray hutstone- Registered: 1 Apr 2018
- Posts: 2,158
Just catching up on this one. John - you may call me Ray by all means. If you're a cruciverbalist you might understand why I don't care. I'm not an unfriendly bod (I'd like to think not anyway). I don't quite know what you've got against the LSE. It's not my Alma Mater but I did have a close, late lamented friend who graduated from there in the 70s. It was a bit of a bastion of liberal thinking in those days. Neither do I consider myself the font of all wisdom. I have a particular dislike of emojis - they don't add anything that a well honed phrase can't better. But hey - if you think add it adds to your argument, then who's to complain? It's just that most of the times that particular emoji is used on here it's preceded by a load of guff.
Anne Applebaum is simply making the point that so many arguments regarding foreign trade, financial benefits from leaving, the holy grail of immigration reduction etc etc are proving to be based upon misunderstandings. Chickens are coming home to roost and will do so with increasing frequency. You've only got to hear today's news about Indian doctors on the "learn, earn, leave" scheme having their visa claims rejected to understand how these attitudes are working to our society's detriment.
I can do no better than refer to Dominic Grieve's speech in yesterday's debate. But I doubt you'd be interested enough to follow it up. Confirmation bias isn't a wonderful thing. Obviously, you'll say that I suffer from it as much as the Brexiteer camp. Sooner or later people will realise that Brexit is a crock of doo-doos for the UK. Scotland, Northern Ireland, Gibraltar and an economic fiasco that will take years to recover from. Will we get by? Yes - of course we will. We will suffer and regret being led by a bunch of hypocrites? Yes - of course we will. Let's bury the hatchet and see what things look like in 2 years time, shall we? After all, we've postponed the leaving date once already.
John Buckley- Registered: 6 Oct 2013
- Posts: 615
Appreciate the response Stuart, but unfortunately I guess that our views regarding most EU topics will always differ. My mindset regarding the EU of which I studied and all it represents was fixed many years ago and personally I’ve seen nothing since to change my way of thinking. I’ve always believed that the EU was and is detrimental to our way of life, even though I daresay many people will disagree with that particular viewpoint. We were tricked into joining a political union in the first place when we didn’t need to and have been sucked deeper into the costly EU Superstate programme ever since.
No point going over again all the numerous pros and cons of which by now we are all familiar with, but I would agree that we may well experience some rocky times ahead before things stabilise and improve.
Unfortunately, what doesn’t help matters is that we seem to have a fairly weak “negotiating” team, not helped by having a prime minister that doesn’t really believe in what she’s having to do and is prone to facilitate the demands of the EU without much objection.
I only hope that I live long enough to see my point proved and to be able to say “told you so”!
Agree with your sentiments though regarding immigration, unfortunately nothing surprises me anymore about the way our immigration “service” works. I’m currently going through a family visa refusal situation which has occurred due to an error on their part and yet is costing me yet more money and time to resolve their ineptitude. It really is like banging your head against a brick wall trying to get any semblance of sense out of that shower.
I would finally add that it’s not my belief that many people who voted to leave the EU are actually against immigration, certainly not me, but basically that we should allow in the workers that we actually need and require from wherever in the world and reject illegals and criminals. That shouldn’t be difficult should it?
As Humphrey would no doubt conclude, we will all know more “in the fullness of time”!
Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,681
I have lived in a number of EU nation states and it is clear to me that the smaller nations (in my case Belgium, Denmark & The Netherlands) distrust the EU almost to the same extent as we do. The larger nations (France & Germany) are the ones whose political classes have desired the turning of the EU into some sort of USE.
Unfortunately, many of the smaller nations damn us for not taking a leading role in standing against the excesses of the French & Germans (& their lackies) when they have pushed for greater convergence. It seems clear to me that the UK missed ample opportunities to galvanise & lead the smaller northern European nations against the Franco-German hegemony, but because of our lack of courage, diplomatically, when it comes to rocking the boat, we fluffed it. Brexit with all its lies, half truths, misunderstandings and the pain it will cause is a direct result of us never fully engaging with the EU and fighting our corner.
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
John Buckley- Registered: 6 Oct 2013
- Posts: 615
You make some relevant points there Ross, especially about not fighting our corner, but whose fault was that, our successive useless governments or our equally useless commissioners just in the position to milk the gravy train for all its worth?
The EU has always treated us with contempt, because they could, and given us virtually bugger all.
A good example was the way they treated the idiot Cameron when if they had simply given him a few concessionary scraps to bring back from his joke “negotiations” Brexit would likely have been dead in the water. But no, old habits die hard, so he came back virtually empty handed, although it was somewhat amusing seeing him trying to convince us thickos that he had actually secured a good deal, absolutely farcical!
That is just one reason why many people think “sod ‘em”, we’ve had enough, we’re better off out.
And I’m one of them!
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
Guy Verhofstadt writing in the Telegraph.
Less than six months remain until the Brexit withdrawal agreement, which will be accompanied by a political annex setting out the principles of the future relationship, must be finalised at the European Council meeting of the 18-19 October. It is fair to say negotiations have had their ups and downs, but on a positive note, substantial progress has been made in recent months. Thanks to the hard work of UK and EU negotiating teams, an estimated eighty percent of the Withdrawal Treaty has now been finalised. Despite this progress, a number of tricky issues remain to be addressed, from the agreement of a backstop solution to ensure there is no hardening of the Irish border, to the governance mechanisms which will police the withdrawal agreement and the principles of the future relationship. In light of the Windrush scandal, we also have every reason to be cautious and to work together to reassure EU citizens that there will be no repetition of this for them.
One key outstanding issue that has yet to be resolved – and which will dominate discussions in the coming weeks – is the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. David Davis has suggested that this issue might not be dealt with until October, but this would be far too late.
The UK’s agreement, in principle, of a “backstop option” to ensure regulatory alignment is maintained in Northern Ireland after the UK formally withdraws was one of the key conditions opening discusses on the future relationship. This option is a last resort geared toward preserving the Irish peace process, but an essential one. The UK Government has rejected the EU’s proposal for a “common regulatory area”, but it is yet to offer an alternative. A credible proposal is needed swiftly, so we can reach a deal before the June European Council. Yes, it would be far more preferable to find a solution based on the future EU-UK trading relationship, but given the lack of proposals from the UK on what they would like our future relationship will look like in practice, this currently appears out of reach. We await British proposals outlining their vision for a future relationship.
In order to avoid a trade negotiation resulting in additional barriers to commerce, the deep and special relationship that Theresa May regularly speaks of, must now be fleshed out. As Michel Barnier has stated on many occasions, the EU stands ready to adapt to any change in the UK’s red lines, but there is no indication the Government will change course. Thus, the room for manoeuvre between the EU’s core principles and the UK red lines remains slight. While the EU was quick to decry the UK’s “cake and eat it” approach as cherry picking. The UK has likewise accused the EU of seeking to offer “the market access of Canada, with the obligations of Norway”. The European Parliament and I believe that if we are to build the close future relationship both sides desire, we are in need of a concept to escape these accusations. This is why European Parliament recently adopted a more detailed concept for the architecture of a potential future EU-UK relationship, based on an association agreement. Too often, those familiar with this term immediately think of the recent EU - Ukraine association agreement, but in practice such agreements are more akin to a blank canvas. A box into which we can place different areas of cooperation on trade and economic relations, foreign policy and security, internal security and thematic co-operation. At its heart would be a deep and comprehensive free trade area. Association agreements are flexible constructions, which are familiar to continental Europeans and we know how to make them. Indeed, the first ever association agreement was designed as a way to enable co-operation between the European Coal and Steel Community and the United Kingdom, which had retreated from formal treaty negotiations in 1955.
Ultimately, it would surely be preferable to develop one overarching governance framework with one mutual agreed governance structure, rather than a nightmarish web of agreements made up of over a hundred bi-lateral treaties, as currently exists between the European Union and Switzerland.
Besides, opting for the “Swiss route” would almost certainly lead to an extension of the transition agreement beyond 2020, whereas an association agreement could feasibly be signed provisionally at the end of the transition period, to be ratified later.
However, the preparations for an association agreement must start now. Which is why the time for wishful thinking and kicking the can down the road is fast coming to an end. Tough decisions need to be made and pragmatism put before ideology, but I am convinced that the re-invention of an association agreement would allow both the EU and the UK to unlock a lasting deep and special partnership for the future.
Captain Haddock- Location: Marlinspike Hall
- Registered: 8 Oct 2012
- Posts: 7,482
howard mcsweeney1 wrote:At its heart would be a deep and comprehensive free trade area. .
Good God! He's stating to 'get it'! All we need now are the two words 'tariff free' and the so called 'problem' of the Irish border disappears?
https://www.economicshelp.org/trade2/benefits_free_trade/'If no one went no faster than what I do there'd be a sight less trouble in this world'
Button- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 2,900
Alas, 'tariff free' does not abolish border controls - look no further than the Norway/EU border in, say, Immingham or the Swiss/EU one in, say, Basle. A free trade area doesn't necessarily abolish them either - it didn't in the cases of EFTA or the EEC; 'deep and comprehensive' is interesting, but I wonder if it means continued regulatory alignment.
howard mcsweeney1 likes this
(Not my real name.)
Neil Moors- Registered: 3 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,227
As far as I can see, the Irish border issue is unsolvable. Therefore, big political decisions need to be made at some point, fairly soon.
For all the talk of technology solving it via some mythical means, even if that were true (which it aint) - the UK Government's track record on high profile IT/technology projects is hardly unblemished!
howard mcsweeney1 likes this
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
Button wrote:Alas, 'tariff free' does not abolish border controls - look no further than the Norway/EU border in, say, Immingham or the Swiss/EU one in, say, Basle. A free trade area doesn't necessarily abolish them either - it didn't in the cases of EFTA or the EEC; 'deep and comprehensive' is interesting, but I wonder if it means continued regulatory alignment.
Not sure that Bob understands this, back in my day when exporting to an EFTA country a form EUR 1 backed up with a commercial invoice swearing that the goods were of EEC then later EU origin had to be stamped and sent forward to destination to ensure no duties/taxes had to be paid.
However the Customs coves at destination still had to be satisfied of the veracity of the documents and goods, therefore no free movement across borders.
Button likes this
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352