Guest 685- Registered: 5 May 2009
- Posts: 85
10 November 2010
13:2579440#1
Back in 1992, I took the case for Western Heights to be declared an Ancient Monument to a Public Inquiry ... and was successful. Indeed, I was so successful that the Inspector was scathing of DDC and introduced a number of other caveats.
However, DDC, with its usual determination to destroy Dover's history
- Witness the destruction of the Roman remains to build the White Elephant.
- The nauseating attack on Brian Philp in an effort to get the Roman Painted House shut down.
- The demolition of Brook House
- The virtual closure to the general public of the Town Hall - the Maison Dieu
- And so on and on...
Have decided to over-rule the decision, with regards to Western heights, that has been legally binding since 1993.
Yesterday I wrote the following letter to Mr Aziz, DDC's extremely well paid Chief Executive:
I keep reading and hearing rumours of a planned development on Western Heights which will include a good deal of housing. The pay-back, to Dover will, besides the Council tax that Dover District Council will accrue, the possible upgrading of the Drop Redoubt.
You are, of course, aware that I successfully presented the argument against a similar proposed development in 1992 at a Public Inquiry. Indeed, the Inspector, Mr Stoddart, made a number of recommendations, one of which was designating the site as an Ancient Monument. All of the recommendations the Dover District Council of the time adhered to as they felt that it would be too expensive to undertake a legal challenge.
Indeed, English Heritage were of the same mind and as they were/are responsible for the Ancient Monument designation they too adhered.
I sought legal advice and this morning I was informed that the 1993 ruling still stands as it was not challenged at the time.
A few weeks ago the Dover Mercury raised this with DDC, to be told, in essence, that the decision was originally made following a Local Plan Inquiry and that this has now been superseded.
I have been advised to point out to you that because of the designations put in force in 1993 - and not challenged at the time - it is incumbent on DDC to hold a full Public Inquiry to have them legally rescinded.
I trust that you will give serious thought to this and not treat the above as you have with regards to other serious matters, by sending me a threatening letter saying, in essence, shut up or legal action will be taken.
Lorraine Sencicle
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
10 November 2010
13:3379441#2
interesting stuff lorraine, i have only heard of the possibility of a hotel being built up there, which i would approve of.
it would be a chance for more people to see the drop redoubt, grand shaft etc and enjoy the great walks and spectacular scenery.
a big no to housing though, i cannot see a public inquiry giving the go ahead.
re; your last paragraph, you are not the only one to get such a letter.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
10 November 2010
13:4479446#3
Lorraine, Lorraine, Lorraine - you really are raising some old ghosts there and you are so far off-track it is unbelievable.
I am not going to go back over the old history and raise issues like the way Phelp was brought to book by his professional body for his behaviour. or how the site of the WCE would still be a bomb site if DDC did not act or how much better it would have been for the Roman Painted House and the WCE if Phelp had co-operated and had not been a complete a---e from start to finish.
You are I have debated and disagreed over all that in the past,.....
Development at the Western Heights would need the co-operation of English Heritage and what a wonderful site for a hotel and conference centre it would be. An improved and properly presented Drop Redoupt and Grand Shaft - great, we really need that because Dover must exploit all its assets to progress.
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
10 November 2010
13:4479447#4
Great stuff there Lorraine keep fighting your corner and dont let the threat of legal action diminish your light. No doubt this will be of real interest to some of our guys on here like Paul Scotchie Wells who are part of the team that run the events up there plus much more.
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
10 November 2010
13:5179449#5
Times have changed and no-one is going to come along and give the millions of pounds that the Heights need to fully preserve them no matter how much we wish they would
All parties now realise that there needs to be some compromise in how investment in sought, if some sort of commercial money is needed to develop parts of the Heights to preserve others then it might have to go this way. For instance if someone were to come along and build a high class conference centre/hotel on the Grand Shaft Barracks, that was sensitively build and helps preserve other areas. The old South Front Barracks site could be used. The old Victoria Hall site could be cleared and developed. The site of the old Church could be utilised.
I am not saying build 1000 houses up there like the DDC document does (just calculated on density vs area), but done correctly 'might' work. We can't get stuck on the past like some people want to happen with the docks, new uses need to be found for sites that make them both self-funding.
I can see that if the Heights are invested in and complements the Castle then the town/heritage between could prosper..
PS - this is a personal view and not of the Western Heights Preservation Society.
English Heritage have had 30%+ removed from their budget so funding is even less likely to come from that direction and the deterioration is getting worse by the year.
Been nice knowing you :)
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,931
10 November 2010
13:5679451#6
Your post makes complete sense to me Paul
.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Unregistered User
10 November 2010
17:3379483#7
To get this right, these are not DDC proposals but landowner/interested parties proposals which will go into the system for consideration as suitable or not.
Likely to be assessed summer next year as part of Site allocations process for those sites not already designated.
This is part of the LDF process which falls outside of designated sites identified by the Planning Inspector in the Core Strategy.
Watty
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
10 November 2010
20:1379513#8
Thank Paul
I will add that WHPS will work with various parties once there are proper proposals, until then there is nothing to fight/support. At the moment is really only concepts on a drawing board.
Been nice knowing you :)
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,948
10 November 2010
20:5079521#9
Thats a very interesting view point paul.
Its about on the one hand saving the past
whilst on the other hand surviving
you may not like whats on offer, but sometimes you have to go down these roads to survive sadly
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
10 November 2010
21:2079526#10
Places like Fort Pickcombe in Plymouth as been converted to luxury apartments
http://www.fortpicklecombe.com/DSCF0060.JPG
Fort Horstead in Chatham is a conference centre:
http://www.forthorsted.co.uk/
Places do need to find a new like to keep them funded - look at Dover Castle, it is almost having to Disney-fy itself with actors and Roland the Farter characters to keep people interested.....
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
10 November 2010
21:3079528#11
But it also brings history to life Paul and creates new interest in the subjects. So much of the history that has been taught in schools in recent years has been dull and boring. In my time we learnt about the kings and queens, the invasions, battles and bloodletting. We had stories of the great heroes of empire, Drake and Frobisher, Wellington and Nelson, Marlborough, Livingstone, Clive, Rhodes - kids today will have heard of few or even none of these...
It stirred our imagination but these days it is just too dull - to have history brought to life in this way is the antidote to that. Something that Brian Phelp could never understand.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
10 November 2010
21:3679530#12
quite right barry, i love the history programmes on bbc2 and channel 4.
i never listened at school to any of the drivel being spoken about, the castle are first class at making history accessible.
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
10 November 2010
21:4079531#13
Yes that is right, new ways to educate have to be thought of rather than being stuck in the past of a bare building
Even now I am learning things from the re-enactors we have at our events and people love it when they wave their guns at the public when on the firing line :)
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 685- Registered: 5 May 2009
- Posts: 85
11 November 2010
08:2679588#14
I am delighted with the response and the breadth of the comments expressed. It reminds me of the halcyon days when the Dover Express saw themselves the Forum of Discussions. Sorry Barry if talking about Dover's history is an embarrassment.
Dover's past is important, I write about it almost every week in the Dover Mercury. Although developers, when they are trying to gain planning permission, will promise anything, history shows that their perceived responsibility ends when they have achieved their profit margins.
Concerning Western Heights, money does need to be spent, in Canada a similar, but smaller ancient military establishment is treated as a national treasure. Beautifully preserved etc. etc. Following the 1992/3 Planning decision English Heritage promised to use the profits from Dover Castle to do the same for Western Heights. Except for the initial response, this petered out as those who made the promise moved on. Similarly to what I expect the would be developers will do.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
11 November 2010
08:3479590#15
You are a good historian Lorraine, write some good stuff, but on the more recent history your judgement is being rather clouded and distorted.
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
11 November 2010
18:2479669#16
The difference with Canada is the density of historic sites that we have. The UK in particularly Kent has one of the highest densities of archaeological site in the world, and thousands of defence sites in need (Dover, Chatham, Sheerness dockyard, Gravesend, Grain, Medway, etc, etc, etc) as well as hundreds of churches in need.
We probably have more sites in East Kent as the whole of Canada !!!
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
11 November 2010
23:5379745#17
Lorraine, if you have made statements about development projects (statements) that are not against the law, in this Country no court will hold you to account!
As for bulding 1000 houses on Western Heights - now I haven't got a clue if there is such a plan and am only going on what I read on this thread - if there were such a development proposal - note the conditional if - then obviously I would campaigh against it.
In May there are local Elections, perhaps it would be a good idea to know who one is voting for. Up on Western Heights is also a village, I asume with village status, then there is the part where I live, with Town status (Dover Town), and there is the District Status. A whole lot of nominations for candidtaes in various spheres of administration.
The best proposal I can offer is that one looks at what a candidtae for May campaigns for, which is why local Elections take place.
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
12 November 2010
08:2379755#18
a slightly intressting post,but would like to know where they going to put a 1000 houses.
Guest 685- Registered: 5 May 2009
- Posts: 85
12 November 2010
08:4179756#19
Alexander, according to the LDF SITE ALLOCATIONS INTERIM CONSULTATION DOCUMENT identifies 120 new development sites for consideration that includes the whole of the Western Heights site.
The site is a designated Ancient Monument - I brought the case in 1992 and the result was published in 1993. I have shown Paul - the Boss of the Dover Forum - a map, produced by DDC, which identifies the full extent of the Western Heights Ancient Monument site.
However, there are powerful folk in Dover who are in denial over this designation and/or its extent.
Having spent time and money successfully winning a legal battle for a Community Hospital for Dover - only to see it smashed by erstwhile politicians and other powerful folk for their own reasons - and aided and abetted by well meaning but gullible folk. I expect the same to happen over this.
I am eternally grateful that Paul gave me the chance to tell exactly what happened over the Community Hospital saga. He has also given me chance to bring to the attention of Dover the danger of losing a designated Ancient Monument - Western Heights.
Lorraine
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
12 November 2010
09:3779761#20
The Heights are on the proposal as it was submitted by a developer not DDC. plus if you read it the 1473 houses is a basic calculation of area x density so no real science behind it as it is mostly 45 degree hills !!!
People are well aware of the Scheduled Monument status, nature reserve, and people will oppose/support any plans when appropriate - at the moments there are NO PLANS so nothing to waste our breaths on.......
Been nice knowing you :)