Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
I totally disagree with you Bern he spoke what he considered to be right after what he has seen and been told. It is the job of MPs to speak out like this and good for him.
Jan - the only knee jerk reactions are from the left over this.
Davies made sense and I have said many times that the minimum wage is counter productive and should be dropped.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
If you read his comments objectively you will see that his two middle paragraphs merely recount what MIND clients with learning difficulties told him; he is not expressing a view that disadvantaged people are somehow less valuable than others; he is lamenting the existence of such a perception among employers, and laying the blame at the door of the minimum wage legislation. That is not to say that he is advocating a lower minimum wage for disabled people, nowhere in his comments can I find such a suggestion. Can you?
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
barry is clearly trying to deflect the issue of the rent-a-mouth m.p by using the word "left" 3 times in ne post and making it a party issue.
the fact is that his own party were first to distance themselves from his comments.
let's forget the philosophy/moral side of things and look at the practicalities.
it seems that the idea is that people with learning difficulties should earn les than others for doing the same job.
the sort of job that people with these problems get are things like street cleaning, emptying bins and similar stuff that requires no qualifications.
in order to keep these jobs the output from the people with learning difficulties has to be the same as those with no problems.
so why should they get less pay?
It really isn't a left/right issue! I genuinely don't understand where that keeps coming from. And I did hear Davies make some poorly informed and frankly silly comments on R4 which really did simply confirm his poor comprehension of the issues. I think it is significant that mental health and LD charities have been distressed by this. So let's not try the "it's ok because some service users said it" or the "he's only trying to help" tack.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Left is Barry's favourite four-letter word. Barry, if you used it less as a pejorative term, people might react less vehemently to your posts.
I agree Bern, it isn't a left-right issue. But here we are arguing about words when we should be debating ideas to help the disadvantaged.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
The over-the-top reaction to this is coming from the left. I have used this as an example of how the left try to stifle discussion, we have seen it many times before.
How else in a political context should left be used Peter other than pejorative, after all many do the same with 'right'...
Howard - using left-right is not making it a party political issue at all. The left comprise of a number of parties and none. As indeed do the right. I might add that if anything Marek was more responsible of making a Party issue from it with his title, he could just have well just said MP.
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,888
Bern and Peter, the voices of reason.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
the electorate are left cold by the left/right thing, most do not even know what they mean.
much better to discuss issues on their merits.
I agree - and frankly, isn't that what Cameron et al are saying they want as well, if anyone needs party approval!!
Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
I am totally fed up with politics dominating many threads on this forum. I thought there was a politics page, for those who are that bothered.
I am sick with being labelled and being patronised.
My views and ideals do not come from the way I vote, they come from my experience's, from me the person. If that does not sit well with some people, then attack me, they are my views, my values, no one else's.
Some people can only guess what it's like on the other side of the fence and do not have a clue what life is really like and quite frankly with politics removed, they are left naked, which I find very sad.
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
Hear Hear!!! I am frankly confused about where the left/right thing came form in this thread about disability and work!
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,888
Gary, I know exactly what you mean although I have not been labelled......................yet. This is often because that is their sole topic of conversation as they have little interest in anything else apart from politics or their work.
Bern, the left/right argument was started by Barry#8 with his "hysterical left" comment.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Ah, all becomes clear........
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Gary C, I agree that being labelled is highly irritating. Like when Keef calls me Tory.
If we were all quizzed in detail about our beliefs and social consciences, I am sure that we would all find much more to unite us than to divide us. Sensationalist thread titles don't help- Marek referred to the less able bodied in his title when the subject was really the less able minded. And most of the opening post was lifted from the Daily Mirror website- hardly an organ of total impartiality.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
never had you down as a mirror reader peter, more to you than meets the eye.
agree about labelling though, only the blinkered can go along with one political philosophy, much the same applies to religion
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
Peter
Less abled bodied is in my opinion far better than labelling a section of society as less abled minded or handicapped. I have never come across the term less abled minded previously but would assume it referred to rapists,thugs,muggers,vandals,grafitti artists and the like.
The title thread was not lifted from any newspaper nor was it meant to be 'sensationalist' but to attract readers to a serious debate. It obviously succeeded.
Because I appreciated the nature of Mr Davies comments rather than re-report them with my own slant I referred to 3 newspapers namely Mirror,Mail and Telegraph to ensure that his statement was accurately recorded.All 3 had the same statements from Davies in quotation marks indicating reported speech.
In my opening post I made no referral to the left or right this was left to others to do.
In no way do I feel the need to apologise for starting this thread or my opening post. As all threads develop it has taken on its on form and direction.
Finally no one is forced to read any thread they find distasteful or disgree with or are simply not interested in. There is the facility to 'click' on the 'mark all topics as read' link.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Howard, if you google a whole paragraph the source often becomes clear. And I glance at many newspapers but read few. In the case of the Sun I only study the pictures.
Marek, methinks thou dost protest too much. You say you reported it without a slant. So what are the following paragraphs if not your own slant?
"It really beggars belief that in todays fairly liberal society that such extreme right wing views should be held by a sitting member of parliament.
He'll be saying next "Look - I met a guy the other day; he was deaf, he was dumb, he was blind - but he sure played a mean pinball, and he was able to make a good living from it. And that non-reliance on the state is what disabled people want."
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,888
I use the ''mark all topics as read" link quite often when I see where they are heading to a slanging session between the political boys as they become........... I'm correct, no I am, threads.
I also agree that less able bodied was a mistake, mentally impaired or handicapped would have been more accurate, there is a big difference between the two.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
i go along with blue barry and support modern terminology.
when i used to take my dog "fat ted" for a walk, i was stopped by so many people who enquired why she only had one eye.
i pointed out that she was optically challenged then marched off in a huff.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Referring to mentally handicapped people as 'a section of society' is a little demeaning, don't you think? Any mentally handicapped person needs individual care and attention on a 1-to-1 basis to maximise their potential.
When we lived in Barfreston we were privileged to know the members and carers at Little Ewell, the residential home run by L'Arche Kent, a branch of a charity established many years ago by Jean Vanier, a French Canadian living in France.
Each resident is quite severely mentally disadvantaged yet the carers work tirelessly to allow them to express themselves in different ways. Most of the residents work either in the organic vegetable garden (growing food for the community) or in the art workshops in Barfreston and Canterbury, where they produce artefacts for sale to help support the community.
Every member of the community is valued and nurtured both by the carers and by the wider community in which they live.
This may not be the most economically viable model for looking after vulnerable adults but it is certainly the one which gives them the best quality of life in an institutional setting.
Call that a Tory view on handicapped people if you will.....
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson