Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
p&o has now got the monoperly on the dover/calias route and now making more money at seafrances expence.any move from seafrance and they will surly object to any move if it cuts there new found profit.
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
brian
the price of privitisation
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Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Better than the cost of State losses and inefficiency.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
as has been said in other threads theres also wastage/poor workmanship in the private industries
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Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
at the moment p&o are un chalenged on the dover/calias route,not good the traverling public.compition deals a fairer fare.
Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
Without EU subsidy of £ 3.5 billion to British farmers they would need to go cap in hand to the Treasury......................
........no chance.
Without the subsidy our food supply would change drastically.....cheap imports....increased in food prices..food supply
reduced.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
New Zealand got rid of subsidies for their farming and after a period of adjustment the sector is now stronger than ever. Europe including the UK and the USA should drop all farming subsidies as well. This one would be difficult though for the UK to go alone on when we leave the EU, but not impossible.
Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
Reg.
I have no problem with farmers receiving subsidies. The knock on effect, if removed, would be disastrous for all of us.
I started this thread on the back of BarryW making statements like:-
"Subsidy is debilitating the business in so many ways."
"It is in the nation's interests not to go down the subsidy route."
And because I agree with BarryW that the Benefits issue needs solving
However unlike BarryW, I believe there are many others cheats in our country that are surviving off the backs of the less well off, by calling it legal loopholes, tax effective crap and more such terms. Often to the tune of £billions, that if tackled and resolved,would go a long way to reducing this country's debt problem.
It has been stated that these CAP subsidies are being abused by some of our richest people in this country and they have just been told that their nice little earner is safe at least until 2020 and I do not believe that is right.
If this government is going after the disabled and benefit cheats, it should plug these loopholes and go after this lot as well.
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
catching benefit cheats makes good headlines even though the money recovered is miniscule in comparison to the amounts the conglomerates with their tax experts avoid paying.
Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
# 47............Don`t think Farmers will agree or Families when food prices go even higher.
Europe,UK and USA dropping all farming subsidies is not realistic.
Admitting it would be difficult is some what flippant.
# 48.and # 49....agree.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
bit of a complicated issue about farm subsides, anything that keeps food prices down must be a good thing.
however do we make the subsidies universal, there are wealthy landowners and also farms owned by supermarket chains.
on the other hand dairy farms are closing down all the time because of price pressure from the big retail chains, they need subsidies but who would benefit by them?
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,707
The sad reality is that farm subsidies do not keep consumer prices down
They force prices up by taking land out of production
They fill the gap between what farmers are paid by supermarkets and a fair market price for the produce
They induce scarcity through quota systems and encouraging the production of produce we do not need or that is already in surplus thus reducing the availability of produce consumers do want
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
Ross.
I can remember back in the 70's, I was working for George Hammond's. Potatoes were imported through Dover at that time and for some reason, instead of loading them onto lorries for distribution, they were stockpiled in just about every square inch they could find, eventually moving some down to a huge sheep farm on the Romney Marsh.
This was all going on when there was a supposed potato shortage here in the UK.
I can even remember a friend of mine who owned a restaurant telling me that a farmer friend of his that supplied him with his potatoes, got fined for growing more than he was allowed to grow, by the government and that was at the same time they were telling the country that there was a potato shortage.
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
If farming subsidies in Britain were dropped, they'd be an abrupt increase in the price of nationally grown food, and we'd end up importing the same products from Asia and Africa, or Russia.
British food producers would close down and hundreds of thousands of jobs would be lost.
A sheer catastrophe!
Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
Alexander.
No-one has said that these subsidies should be stopped, as stated before this would be disastrous.
Ross has rightly pointed out, that quota systems are the cause's problem's, to a fair market price.
I am making the point that some people may be abusing the CAP subsidies and that should be looked into.
We are not saying farming subsidies should be scrapped.
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Alexander - CAP is a double edged sword, it helps keep prices higher in many cases...as Ross pointed out.
I repeat that New Zealand dropped farm subsidies (mentioned on Farming Today yesterday morning...). It was difficult initially but as the report said the farming sector in NZ is stronger than ever and it did not cause any massive food price rises.
GaryC - I did suggest that dropping farm subsidies should be considered, though preferably across Europe and US not just here. It is lazy thinking to simply assume it would be a disaster. It is a much more complex issue than that and a serious look at the NZ experience is needed rather than just assume we should carry on doing the same old, same old.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Barry, if farm subsidies were dropped here, the food prices would soar, and the home-grown products would be replaced with imported food products, as otherwise most people would not be able to cope with the shopping.
It would be the final blow to our economy, with the trade deficit beyond return and many more hundreds of thousands of people out of work.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Alexander - read and absorb Ross' post.... As I said this is a complex issue and to jump to those conclusions is intellectually lazy. The matters needs a more serious consideration taking into account the NZ experience.
Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
BarryW.
I know you suggested dropping farm subsidies but I did not take it seriously, just another one of your lazy political comments.
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,707
Farm subsidies need to be phased out to create a more level playing field across the globe, perhaps replacing them with farm income support as they have done in the USA would be a good start - farmers there are guaranteed a minimum wage provided they output produce with federal funds meeting any shortfall.
The major issues for many if not most independent farmers in the UK and therefore for UK food security are:
- quotas on certain produce leading to either fines for over production or the excess being thrown away (this forces prices up not down)
- supermarket chains pushing farm gate prices down due to their buying power (this maximises supermarket profits and forces farm incomes down) I have friends who have found that their loss was less ploughing their crop back in rather than harvesting it and selling it at the price the supermarkets were prepared to pay
- supermarkets importing seasonal produce from all over the world thus undermining the traditional seasonal local produce (impacting farm incomes and encouraging farmers to "set aside" land as they will get more money doing so, which again results in scarcity of produce and prices going up)
- supermarkets and wholesalers importing produce cheaper than local farmers can produce it (just look at the demise of the UK hop growers, or even the huge drop in acreage in Kent used for apple orchards)
- historically planning departments encouraging the use of good quality farm land for housing etc. This may rear its ugly head again in the future with the loosening of planning laws. Grade 1 agricultural land for agricultural use sells at between £5&10,000 per acre, development land sells from £25,000 per acre without planning all the way up £150-200,000 per acre with detailed planning - now if you are a struggling farmer what would you do?
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi