Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
BarryW.
I started this thread because of some of the comments you made about subsidies on the Bombardier thread. Some of which are below:-
"It is in the nation's interests not to go down the subsidy route."
"I just said that subsidies should not be considered, success based on subsidy is a mirage and unsustainable."
"At the end of the day you cannot subsidise every business that might go broke. Subsidy is debilitating the business in so many ways."
"Subsidy has to end sometime. Cold turkey is more painful that the natural processes of business growth, merger and sometimes decline."
If you agree that Cap is a farce, why is the thread is an insult?
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
Peter.
I most certainly agree with your #15. That is structure and a necessary structure and also does a great deal for this country and should remain in place.
Ross was also right, the initial post is a bit biased, there are some CAP subsidies that I could have added, English Heritage, RSPCA and others.
My point is though, if we are going to wheedle out the benefit cheats that are costing this country pennies, why are we not wheedling out these subsidy cheats that are costing this country pounds?
BarryW says this thread is an insult and I agree with him. Obviously for different reasons.
Roger.
Your #16 Words fail me.
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
#19. Agreed that perception is crucial in defining parity - which is why politicians in particular need to be more acute when it comes to assessing public response to some tax events. I don't believe it is as simple as you imply - that those receiving whatever will automatically therefore perceive fairness. They may well perceive good fortune, that is different.
Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
# 1. and 2..........all on the `Elite Greedy Pigs `list.
......a lot of money to be saved here.......if we are all in it together!!!
# 16........crumbs from the table ...........thank you sire.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Subsidies can be considered a form of benefit under a different name.
If farmers who'd otherwise go bankrupt receive subsidies, it seems a fair idea, as in return they produce for the market without increasing the prices beyond the means of the general public consumer.
But was the initial post on the thread not in reference to aristocratic landowners receiving benefits? How much wealth do each of these families possess?
Would they go bankrupt without these subsisies?
It seems the biggest recipients of State benefits are the wealthiest families.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
GaryC - You have answered your own question. CAP needs reform but you cannot label those claiming on CAP as 'cheats' just because you don't like them. As I said CAP is worthy of debate but not on the idiotic class bigoted terms that you have set it out.
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
I mean Gary, class, what a myth in our modern society.
BarryW, Gary didn't label all CAP claimants as cheats, just as he did not label all benefits claimants as cheats.. He suggested that if we are dealing with "benefits" cheats we should also look at other types of "benefit". That seems reasonable. Try using the word "support" instead of "benefit". The words we use make a difference to how we perceive things.
Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
BarryW.
Bern is right and if you took a moment to read my posts properly you would see that I dont per-say have a problem CAP.
Your blindness, to only thinking that the un-employed and disabled are the only cheats and all the rest are just taking advantage of a flawed system, is the reason you will always lose respect.
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Gary, any talk of questioning the privileges of the upper class will always touch a raw nerve with Barry
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
Forgive me if I worded my post badly Gary, but what is wrong with saying that the less well off should be able to keep more of what they earn ?
Isn't that the point of this thread ? that more is being taken off of those least able to afford it ?
Roger
Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
Sorry Roger.
Of course that is not wrong, I misunderstood you, I thought you were saying they should make more of what they get and even save some out of what they get.
That could be true of some on benefits of course but that is only a few and not the majority that other's believe.
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
any chance of a sub for a couple of wheelie bins.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
If the SeaFrance Scop deal goes through, they will be running under a French government subsidy via the peppercorn lease payments on their ships. Who should we then subsidise to protect British jobs - a Danish-owned company or a Dubai-owned one? Or both? Answers on a postcard please......
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Peter, the Dubai company that owns P&O is itself in massive debt, I believe mainly towards British banks. But they are financially covered by the Arab Emirates national treasury.
So it has no negative effect on P&O.
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
bern and garyc make some realy good points and thankyou gary for your research and debating points.
yes maybe reform is the way and i think gary's NON BLINKERED reform would be a way forward
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Alex I know the Dubai Inc network of companies well. Sheikh Ahmed is a hard headed businessman who made the decision to buy P&O because it made commercial sense. If the ferries arm continues to under-perform and can't be brought back to an acceptable level of profitability, it will be sold off or closed. End of. Compared to Emirates Airlines P&O is very small beer indeed but it still needs to justify its existence. That is particularly true because, as you rightly say above, Dubai Inc is largely debt-funded.
Actually there is no such thing as the 'Emirates Treasury'. The UAE is a federation of self-governing states (albeit with a common currency) in which each has responsibility for its own financial affairs.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Dubai Ports World is owned by the government of Dubai.
In 2009, Dubai was close to insolvency owing to large-scale investments (including the purchase of P&O), but received a $10 billion dollar loan from Abu Dhabi, another member of the United Arab Emirates.
P&O do more than operating from Dover to Calais. They also have management contracts in major US ports.
If Dubai Ports Worl want to sell P&O, as you suggest, Peter, that won't be a problem, because P&O do not have a debt situation like Sea France.
Hopefully the Dubai government owned DPW does not think of buying DHB.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
the rumour that went around at the time they bought p & o is that they wanted to buy the port as it fitted in with their core business but had to settle for the major ferry company.
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,706
Yes Howard it was a rumour entirely without any foundation as the port was not for sale at that time.
P&O not only run ferry services from Dover, Hull, Troon & Liverpool, they also provide
UK & European freight services through P&O Ferrymasters,
P&O Services provides maritime training, ISM Auditing, marine services and commercial services (port operations, ticketing services etc.)
P&O Maritime Services Pty Ltd provide specialist shipping solutions to varied clients including government agencies and commercial clients. Defence, security and marine science and research as well as cargo solutions and ship chartering, Istithmar P&O Estates provides commercial, retail & mixed use property investment and development
P&O Heritage maintains the historic P&O collection an online and real resource
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