Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
9 December 2010
08:3283768...on tuition fees.
Now I know we have talked a lot about this already but here I am with one last go on the topic. Today the big vote goes ahead and it will be a close call as to the outcome. The Coalition however seem to have the numbers to push it through, thanks to the Libdems...and thanks mainly to their swivelling turncoat leader Nick Clegg.
He has lied to himself and the public so much in recent times, that he appears now to be believing his own lies...he was wide-eyed and convincing on tv last night, but is no longer believed. He has re-written the book "how to win friends and influence people" with the opposing theory. Channel 4 took delight last night in their 7pm bulletin to show him doing his recent election video. This showed election leaflets representing the broken promises of other politicians fluttering in the breeze behind him as he walked through the streets of London. If he hadnt overly pushed this 'Im not like the others' squeeky clean approach, most of his turncoating would have been accepted by now.
However latest shock news last night is that the Deputy Leader of the Libdems Simon Hughes will not..not..vote with Nick Clegg nor the Coalition government. Here is a man with a conscience and destined surely to replace Clegg when the ugly dust settles.
But both Clegg and the Conservative cohort Cameron are both spouting the latest backroom message.
"Why should the taxpayer pay when many taxpayers never see the benefit of university, why should he pay?!"
They are all spouting this one...like it was a tablet revelation from Moses, but its just the latest spin-line. Let me answer it. The Taxpayer has always paid. He has paid for the two front benches on either side of the House. They all got their education for free and all are shining examples of it.
The taxpayer receives the benefit of well educated doctors, scientists, lawyers, engineers etc in the years to come. Thats where the taxpayer gets the benefit..when he ambles along to outpatients with a broken toe someone with a university education will fix his toe for him.
Just imagine a madcap scenario for a moment. Suppose nobody could afford tuition fees and nobody at all went to Uni. We would have to import all our expertise from foreign lands...now there's a thought!
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
9 December 2010
08:5483771I don't have a problem with tuition fees because no one has to pay them back until they start earning reasonable/good money, some will never pay it back, so what's the problem ?
If you are earning £50, 000 and in many cases much more, paying back such a loan will not be a problem; if you are earning much less, you don't pay anyway.
Roger
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
9 December 2010
09:1283772PaulB - that is pure spin and does not reflect the facts.
The new system is far better and fairer than the one Labour left behind.
Charlie though is right - there are far, far too many going to Uni.
Too many people hold overblown paper qualifications in much too high an esteem.
International statistics recently released show how secondary educational standards have fallen under Labour - better to get that right and make more of education up to the sixth form than send more and more to Uni.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
9 December 2010
10:0483774i would reiterate what i said on the relevant thread, in the case of doctors, dentists, pharmacists and the like a strong case can be made for free tuition.
the present situation leaves us having to import the vast majority from overseas.
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
9 December 2010
10:2383777paulb
most of your posting is correct, but as simon hughes is only abstaining (big cop out) which is how this cobbled together govt will prob get this through.
but a number of lib dems have half seen the light and will abstain which knowing lib dems thats about all you can realy ask for.
theres no doubt the lib dems have never been a party of consistency, never been reliable.
but there days are numbered, even those that abstain, it wont be enough to save them.
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 703- Registered: 30 Jul 2010
- Posts: 2,096
9 December 2010
10:5083784The system worked fine until Tony Blair decided he wanted 50% of population to have a degree when not that number of jobs need it. Many courses that were better taught through polytechnics and colleges were then upgraded to degree status and we couldn't afford to support that number of students in the way we had earlier.
As Howard and others have said above, there's a good case for free tuition for those professions that we need and are a benefit to society once qualified. The argument that if someone is earning less than £21000 then they don't have to repay anything highlights what's wrong at present - if you can't earn that with a degree then it was a waste of time getting it.
I'm off for lunch at the Univ of Kent today, might be an interesting time.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
9 December 2010
11:5083787Good common sense Ray, hope your lunch comes off as planned, I heard on the BBC national news this morning that the intelligentsia up at UKC were having a sit-in!
PG.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
9 December 2010
12:3783801Well said Ray.
Guest 703- Registered: 30 Jul 2010
- Posts: 2,096
9 December 2010
17:4083818Lunch with some former staff went well, then word came around that some of the students had occupied the Senate building ( it's not likely to affect normal activities as it's just a meeting place and all the other buildings were very secure so likely the uni authorities left it open for them.)
A couple of the ex staff who were themselves student activists enjoying sit-ins in the 60s and 70s then suggested we go and show solidarity by joining them. Looks of consternation all round - "Er, sorry, my car park ticket will have run out by the time we've had coffee"
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,897
9 December 2010
19:3183839Sensible post Ray
Government 1-Students 0 the bill was passed by 21 votes
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
9 December 2010
19:5083840JAN
Theres bigger votes to come
any bye election involving a sitting lib dem MP
Next general election where a lot of lib dem MP's will be wiped out
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,897
9 December 2010
19:5483841So what Keith, this thread is about the student fees vote not bye elections or the next general election whenever that may be.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
9 December 2010
20:1283843Jan;
There is a connection,
the lib dems including its leader went into the last election pledging to oppose todays vote.
and for whatever reason they sold out.
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
9 December 2010
20:1483844this "kettling" issue rankles me, what is the point of it and is it legal?
it is not right that anyone can be held without committing an offence, if people are demonstrating peacefully then they are exercising their democratic right.
if someone is breaking the law then they should be arrested and flung into a "meat wagon" along with our traditions.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
10 December 2010
06:3983870The problem Howard are the thugs among them, rioting, breaking windows, attacking cars - they deserve to get a damn good whacking. In the old days you could trust the police to do that out of sight but they are far too pc these days.
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
10 December 2010
07:0183871it sounds like a case for the court of human rights here,it allso sounds like the police are tarring all with the same brush.pc it isnt.
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
10 December 2010
08:3783872Yes the vote went through but by a much narrower margin than anticipated...it must have given Nick Clegg an anxiety attack. Not only did nearly half his Libdem MPs vote against him but so did the President of the party, two former Leaders of the party, and the Deputy Leader of his party. So there we are...what does that tell you??
There now seems to be two sets of Libdems in parliament..the group annexed onto the government benches, and the other MPs who arent. The reporter on radio 4 this morning said it was all tooooooo weird, because the group in government were not panicking in the slightest which made it very odd considering the situation, but the reporter could only put it down to the fact that they were enjoying their time with real government power knowing full well that the political wilderness beckons should they rock the boat. The political wilderness awaits...but it may take a little longer.
New Boring Level Found: I had thought previously that Nicola Sturgeon (Scot Nat) was the most boring politician I ever had the misfortune to endure. She makes plain wallpaper look interesting. Her monotones in a weird accent coupled with the total lack of charisma sees the nation nodding off every time.
But no...she has lost her crown. The new boredom king is now Libdem MP Norman Lamb, as seen on the BBC's Question TIme last night. Gawd almighty did he have us dropping off. Oul Dimbleby had to try and curtail his monologues for fear of the nation comatosing. This guy is a political adviser to Mr Clegg...but heavens was that the best they could put up last night while London was in turmoil over their policies.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
10 December 2010
08:4183873HOWARD
The problem is, the police would be slagged whatever they do
like barryw says sadly in all disputes/marches nutters who have nothing better to do than cause violence join in.
so until a way is found to get these nutters out the police have to contain it
everyone including the NUS condemns any violence
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Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
10 December 2010
09:3183882I thought the LibDem guy on Question Time, put forward some very good arguments Paul, the trouble was none of the young people in the audience were listening - they didn't want to listen to rational argument.
I thought the student leader guy put forward some very stupid and dangerous arguments.
Roger
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
10 December 2010
09:4283885quetion time is not on my watching list,allways found that when i have watched it i found that the panel and some of the audiance biased,opininated and obnoxsouis.
