howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#1
as we thought, all talk from our betters.
20 weeks for trying to gouge someone's eyes out, will be out in 10 weeks.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2024767/Man-charged-riot-incitement-Facebook-looters-guilty.htmlDT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
#2
This has been so terrible for many reasons and also very complicated to understand.
The main thing that stood out for me in this article that only adds to my confusion is 'stealing from Liam Gallagher's boutique'
If this doesn't exemplify the complexity of our society, then what does?
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
#3
I do think that some of the sentences are too lenient - this rioting/looting/arson etc. was so very wrong, the perpetrators need to know they cannot/must not do it again and only a stiff sentence will show that.
Slapping hands never achieved anything, other than showing them that they "got away with it".
Roger
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
#4
Roger
I totally agree but the prisons are full to bursting point,every police cell is occupied so what are the alternatives?
Stop their benefits
Tagging
Banned from London postcodes
Community service ie street cleaning
Publish convicted offenders on web os shame on Facebook
These are a few of outside the box sentences
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
#5
I appreciate the prisons are full Marek, but many people are in prison who shouldn't be there - foreign prisoners for one; why should we pay to keep them locked up, they should be sent back from whence they came.
For fraud and other non-violent crimes, take their assets as fines and give them long community service, meaningful community service, not the loosely supervised and cotton-wool activities they do now - give them really hard work.
Then these violent offenders of late can spend time in prison.
Roger
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
#6
Roger
Where do you send the foreign prisoners when
1. you don't know which country they came from
2' their home country won't accept them back
3. they have no valid travel documents
4. they have family,wife and kids in UK
I wish it was as simple as you make out..
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
#7
So do I Marek.
In the Telegraph this morning:
Despite David Cameron's promises that they would face "punishment", a string of juvenile criminals have been allowed to return home with their parents.
Several of the young rioters have been pictured in national newspapers committing crimes. Nonetheless, they retain the court's protection of legal anonymity.
The sentences being handed down have dismayed police and MPs after the Prime Minister's promise that rioters would "pay for what they have done".
Further undermining Mr Cameron's tough rhetoric, Kenneth Clarke, the Justice Secretary, backed the courts. He rejected the Prime Minister's call for new sentencing rules.
According to the Metropolitan Police, about half of the 240 people to appear in court so far charged with being involved in the London riots are younger than 18. The Met has arrested 1,009 people in connection with the disorder and 464 have been charged.
Mr Cameron this week promised offenders would not escape punishment because of their age, but several cases yesterday increased concerns that young rioters were not being held to account.
In separate cases in Manchester, two 12-year-old boys walked away from court after being involved in looting. One admitted stealing a £7.49 bottle of wine from a Sainsbury's store and was given a ninemonth referral order.
In court, the youngster appeared ashamed of his actions. But after the hearing, he and his mother swore at reporters.
The other Manchester boy was handed a four-month referral order after admitting using threatening words and behaviour. Several other youths also walked from Manchester city magistrates' court. A 16-year-old boy admitted handling £120 worth of stolen goods and was given a 10-month referral order and ordered to pay prosecutor costs of £120.
A 15-year-old girl was also given a 10-month referral order for stealing alcohol from a Tesco store after admitting burglary. And a 17-yearold was given 18 hours of community service after admitting possessing cannabis.
Mr Cameron has made repeated attempts to dismiss worries about sentencing, promising a hardline approach to rioters. Earlier this week, he warned that even the youngest offenders would face heavy penalties. "If you're old enough to commit the crime, you are old enough to face the punishment," he said. Ministers have spoken of removing benefits and council housing from those convicted of rioting or looting.
In Nottingham yesterday, an 11-year-old girl, who only left primary school last month, smirked and refused to apologise when put before a judge.
She admitted causing criminal damage on Tuesday by smashing shop windows. A judge gave her a nine-month referral order because of her age.
Referral orders are for those under the age of 18 and are a mixture of community work and intervention programmes to help rehabilitation or alter behaviour.
In London, an aspiring dance teacher was filmed as she took a flatscreen television from a looted store, then went back for a second.
The 17 year-old was part of a female gang that allegedly forced its way into the Croydon branch of Richer Sounds. She turned herself in after her picture appeared in the newspapers but retains her anonymity for legal reasons. She was remanded at Westminster magistrates' court to appear at a later date.
James Clappison, a Conservative member of the home affairs committee, said he was "very concerned" about young rioters' light sentences.
"The courts are failing to hand down sufficiently tough sentences," he said. "We need deterrent sentences, but we are not seeing that. Magistrates need to think again."
Police chiefs also expressed concern at soft sentences.
David Attoh, 18, this week admitted stealing two designer T-shirts in Hackney, east London. A magistrate told him that the two days he had spent in a cell awaiting his hearing was adequate punishment and freed him.
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Stephen Kavanagh of the Metropolitan Police said officers who had tackled rioters were dismayed by such sentences.
"Some of us have been disappointed by some of the early sentences we have seen, especially those officers who have been on the front line facing the violence and disorder," he said.
Mr Kavanagh said Tim Godwin, the acting Met Commissioner, had raised concerns about sentencing with ministers. MPs were yesterday recalled from their summer break to debate the riots and Tory backbenchers pressed Mr Cameron to make good on his promises.
Angie Bray, whose Ealing Central constituency saw serious violence, challenged Mr Cameron: "Can he assure my constituents that those who are found guilty will feel the full force of the law, including prison sentences?"
Mr Cameron replied: "People taking part in violent disorder should expect to go to prison."
He also suggested that sentencing rules could be toughened. "We are keeping under constant review whether the courts have the sentencing powers they need and we'll act if necessary," he told MPs.
Government sources said options for change include increasing magistrates' powers to jail offenders. Under current rules, magistrates can jail offenders for a maximum of six months. That could double to a year, sources said.
However, even as Mr Cameron was speaking, Mr Clarke appeared to rule out any change on sentencing. In a BBC Radio Four interview, Mr Clarke said "enough" prison sentences were being imposed.
I know this is just "cut and paste", but it gives a good idea of the leniency the courts are giving out as regards punishment - and Ken Clarke supports it.
Why is he still supported ? He should be dismissed now. The Courts should be supporting the Police and the public.
People - the public, need to feel reassured that these young people are being sentenced enough to put them off of doing it again - the public need protecting from them.
Roger
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
#8
"People - the public, need to feel reassured that these young people are being sentenced enough to put them off of doing it again - the public need protecting from them."
If only the sentences included options as...
Attendance at a local Youth Cub.
Firm encouragement to attend further education, say £30/week?
Is it not odd, not to say perverse, that 'we' are so, so willing to spend, spend, spend to punish whereas we cut, cut, cut any and all positive measures?
I utterly fail to comprehend why, in any democracy, the 'citizen' is by default seen as a liability and an onerous burden upon a Government that the franchised citizenry elect.
David Davis may have been emboldened by comments here yesterday, but went much further than some here in stating that Social Housing IS a privilege.
Truely, in this, as yet a so-called, democracy we seem to elect people to the position of Feudal Overlord and with redoubled perversity term them Our Representatives.
Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,931
#9
What we really need is a deserted island where they can grow their food, we supply the material to build some basic shelters and just leave them there to get on with it. I know it will never happen but I like the idea.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
#10
Jan,
Great minds think alike. :)
I have not envisioned any horticulture, but then again I only consider the outlying islands off Scotland as suitable. So, a few tins and a fishing rod.
Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#11
all hot air from the prime minister, he knows the laws cannot be changed for back dated offences.
a lot depends on what the arrested are actually charged with, this can make a big difference to the length of sentence.
at the end of the day none of our cabinet ministers live in areas where the riots happened.
the fronline police and the burned out and looted residents wil not see justice.
#12
Jan: I had just the same idea. After all Australia did not turn out so badly. Perhaps it would be the making of these yobs.
How about sticking them in the Army? Not front line but doing the most menial tasks and subject to military discipline.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
#13
We have some clear boundaries between the judiciary and government as that is quite correct. Politicians, including DC, should always remember that there are limits to their influence on judges, specially the absurdly lenient and 'liberal' brand that we currently have. It is easy for a politician to set himself up for a fall by overreaching himself in soundbites want to sound tough.
Our criminal justice system is a joke and it will take time to turn it around and these criminals currently 'before the beak' will have to be dealt with by our current comedy special system.
DC can make a start at reform by dropping Ken Clarke - then we need some real legislation, get rid of the HRA (or as I have said before amend it with a 'Human Responsibilities' chapter given equal weight in law to rights) and have minimum sentences for serious crimes. When corporal punishment is returned to schools and including birching for thugs and vandals I will know we are getting somewhere.
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,931
#14
There was someone on Breakfast this morning saying how beneficial Outward Bound courses were for the young and wished that the military services could help more with the same sort of thing because of the discipline involved. He was not in favour of national service though.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#15
national service would be too expensive and impractical.
some years back there was uproar when it transpired that young offenders were being sent on "outward bound" trips to places like kenya and other desirable destinations.
the ones that behaved were stuck in school.
Guest 700- Registered: 11 Jun 2010
- Posts: 2,868
#16
Doesn't France still have National Service - either in the community or in the third world ?
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Lincolnshire Born and Bred
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
#17
I suppose we could ship out the miscreants to places in Somalia and other African countries to help with the aid work. Digging water wells,building mud houses and helping with food distribution in the tented refugee camps. Britain spends huge amounts on overseas aid so why not supply them with cheap labour as well.
Let the thieving mobile phone games console drug taking designer clothed *wats see how the real poor people of the world struggle.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
#18
national service/the ta,same thing really.it all boils down to the same thing in the end.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
#19
NO Brian. The TA volunteers are very far from being National Servicemen. The point of the TA is that they are volunteer part-time soldiers providing support to the regular forces. While National Service was about conscription doing a couple of years compulsory full-time service.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#20
good idea in post 17, not only a suitable punishment but i reckon a lot would come come back with a changed outlook on life.
obvioulsy not going to happen though.