Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Never generalise Jan, it never works.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
There is a nasty rumour circulating that Dover has been trashed by rioters wearing suits emblazoned with the logo ''DDC Planners were 'ere''.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,894
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Guest 683- Registered: 11 Feb 2009
- Posts: 1,052
Jan
the reasons are not fully understood but are suspected to be a mixture of culture, poor role model, low expectations (self and on the part of teachers), and stereotyping.
The fact is that they form a large section of the alienated, disaffected and disenfranchised. It is within this group that work needs to be carried out to re-engage (or engage) or we will simply see this problem return and escalate.
Tough talking Cameron with his vow to 'fightback' does the cause no good at all. This posturing is good mass media stuff for the benefit of the Home County brigade but it will have no impact on those he wants it too.
We'd better hope he has a constructive, long-term strategy being worked on too.
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,707
Indeed
We need to radically change society - my generation is the last for a long time that had it all (free education - easy access to jobs - cheap housing to buy etc.) - the current generation of young people look at their prospects and despair. Housing is out of their reach until they are well into their 30s, jobs get 100s if not 1,000s of applicants and further education involves racking up huge debts.
Somehow we need to change the housing market/situation so that there are genuinely affordable house for the 20 somethings, change the way we define success so it doesnt just mean a job with loads of money, but actually had more to do with contribution to society etc
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
See, I thought it still was about that apart from the seismic blip that was Thatcher (aka me me I).
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,894
I think I give up, it is everyone else's fault that these mindless idiots think it is perfectly all right to burn and loot. There have always been sections of the population that have been in similar situations these youngsters find themselves in but they did not behave like that lot did.
Surely it is only within the last sixty years that we have all "had it all" and only relatively recently that people have striven to own their own house, when I was young nearly everyone rented.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,707
Jan very few people condone the actions of the mob over the last few days
To a great extent the game of apportioning blame/fault is as counter-productive as the burning out/looting of businesses that might have offered a chance, albeit a small one, of employment.
We are where we are, the causes are many and in most instances manifest and sadly are also an inherent part of the system of economics and politics we have opted for over the last 300 odd years in the Western world. In many ways it should not surprise any of us that those too often described as the "underclass" and often in much more pejorative terms feel they have nothing to loose in sticking it to the authorities etc. Mostly this was not organised in any real sense of the word it was the mob reacting on an almost guttural level. Of course there were elements who saw this as a way to make some money, there were many more who saw it as a way of redressing a perceived imbalance. Sadly for the latter it will get worse not better, the government and police will over react in the way they always do, they former will remove more of the few rights and freedoms left to us in the name of security and safety, the later will clamp down and as a result fuel more resentment etc. All the while the middle classes etc. will applaud the firm approach without thinking where the end game might be.
We actually need a new paradigm, a new politics, a new economics - something much more inclusive, where societal contribution is adequately rewarded, where all are considered to have value and worth etc etc
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Guest 683- Registered: 11 Feb 2009
- Posts: 1,052
Ross
excellent! The government's response is critical here but I fear it will pander to the Daily Mail readership rather than address the time bomb that we are sitting on.
Jan
see also Peter's thread where there is a very good analysis too.
Guest 705- Registered: 23 Sep 2010
- Posts: 661
"...We actually need a new paradigm, a new politics, a new economics - something much more inclusive, where societal contribution is adequately rewarded, where all are considered to have value and worth etc etc..."
...That's it Ross- David Cameron's "Big Society"- I imagine Boxer would have believed in it even after Squealer got the boot!
Never give up...
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,894
Seems to have been quiet last night, is that because of police presence, inclement weather or have they all got the designer trainers, plasma TVs, booze etc.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,707
Well Richard - you may wish to interpret my preceeeding paragraph that way - but perhaps that is the problem with the politics and economics of the Western World
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Mark - better off pandering to the Daily Mail readership than that of the Guardian. Its the latter that created this mixed up broken society we have with their liberal politically correct namby pamby attitudes over many decades. Even Mrs T did not reverse that trend that started in the 60's, Woy Jenkins (excessively) permissive society and all that.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
Surely education is the key, not a broken society caused by the "haves". The "have-nots" have nothing, because they have not wanted to be educated, not because they couldn't or didn't have the intelligence; in many instances, that intelligence shows up through criminal acts instead of qualifications and employment.
I'm sure the vast majority of the rioters, muggers, arsonist and looters had very little education (despite what Brian said on an earlier posting) and so very little chance of a job, let alone a career.
Many people who are unemployed are unemployed because they are unemployable. I know these are hard-times as regards jobs and there are many qualified, experienced people chasing just a few jobs, but if there were less unemployed, less people on benefits, the cuts wouldn't be so necessary as there would be more money coming in to the Government coffers.
Education is the key; teaching the value of it, is one of the most important things we must do.
Roger
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Education yes is important Roger but also important is what we teach people.
Clearly looking at the profiles we have seen of looters it is not necessarily the three R's that are lacking and neither is it jobs. Perhaps the problem is too much education in their so called 'rights' and not enough education in their responsibilities and in values. Perhaps the problem is more to do with parents permissiveness than their wealth, indulging the spoilt brats giving them everything that want except what they need, discipline.
(ps Roger - my email is a bit of a problem at the moment, hopefully it will be resolved later today)
Guest 683- Registered: 11 Feb 2009
- Posts: 1,052
Roger
there is not ONE key and that is what so many seem to miss. Schools are already expected to teach the National Curriculum plus work as social workers, psychiatrists, health workers, you name it........... If they are to teach the protocols of rioting there will not be enough time in the day.
There needs to be a wider examination of what it is we want as a society and then policies adopted to achieve that. Jumping up and down making lots of noise and being 'tough' makes for good headlines but merely delays the inevitable.
It has been deeply troubling for most ordinary people to watch others plundering to gain for themselves with little thought of the consequences or the impact on the average citizen. The moral code that most of us live by, and assumed others were signed up to, has been disregarded and shown to be in tatters and the premise that might equals right has been adopted in its place. But that's enough about bankers, MPs and newspaper proprietors; let's get back to the thread of the riots.
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,894
On TV just now they were blaming lack of money etc, why was one of those in court a millionaires daughter and others in employment of all kinds. I am really beginning to believe that too many of the young, I hasten to add not all, believe they can do just what they like without any thought for others.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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its the new generation of they know theres no come back , parents cant slap kids, police have very few powers and to many do gooders baking up thier behaviour and rights
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
it all seems under control now, courts are sitting day and night and many more arrest warrants issued.
there must still be stacks of cctv pictures to go through, rather than volunteers from the law abiding public doing the clean ups i think it would be preferable that after each conviction the miscreant is assigned to this.
once the damage is cleared up then they can spend another year doing jobs in their community that councils cannot do due to budget constraints.
let's see the "big society" show some teeth.
Guest 644- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,214
There are already people cashing in on the riots. On eBay there are commemorative T-Shirts and even someone selling a roll of police cordon tape billing it as 'a piece of history' to own. Quelle surprise.
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