Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,681
Ok I wasn't going to post on this but here goes
I am in favour of the war memorial and of the proposed housing at Farthingloe, but feel the proposed housing on the Heights is unsympathetic to the surroundings and significantly diminishes the amenity of the area. I am not averse to the proposal for a hotel on the heights as an adjunct to the war memorial and as a potential source of revenue for further preservation of the fortifications etc on the heights. I have spoken to many people and they all seem to share broadly similar views.
With regard to the other housing proposals clearly they will not of themselves create wealth or jobs, but the right sort of "family home with garden" developments at appropriate prices will, when combined with the Town Team proposals and High Speed Rail will start to attract the demographic that is sadly missing from Dover. These people will want to educate their kids locally and shop locally therefore delivering extra jobs in schools for local people, increased business for shops/cafes/pubs/restaurants which will progressively create more jobs for locals; medium term this will make Dover a more attractive location to other retailers and businesses hopefully creating a virtuous circle. The missing link and one that many of us are working behind the scenes on is to raise the skill levels of locals to help attract skilled rather than unskilled jobs to the town.
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Paul, in reply to your question, and in reference to "successful restaurants, shops, businesses, services, tourist attraction, building projects", we have all the above mentioned, and all these businesses do already employ people.
A brief glance through the windows of most restaurants in Dover, not necessarily all, will reveal that these often have many, many empty spaces, more now then a few years ago, and a lot more than, say, 20 years ago and more.
Even if there were a relevant influx of visitors to Dover for whatever reason, the existing businesses would be able to cater for them without needing to increase their staff, and this includes supermarkets, taking into account that not all of then have the same business as Morisons and usually don't require much queuing up at the counter.
That said, tourists do not usually go to the supermarkets to do the weekly shop. Many do not necessarily spend a night either, especially if visiting a memorial on a one-off occasion.
This certainly applies to cruise ship tourists, who sleep in their cabins.
Tourists/visitors do not usually by clothes either, but bring these along.
Of-course some shops might employ one person here and there IF the memorial project did attract many, and I mean many people on a regular basis, but that is about all.
However, I cannot see how this would affect our general situation here, more like a drop in the Channel.
Your idea that we would see new restaurants, hotels, B/Bs, shops in plenty, open up with the presence of a memorial, is plainly not viable.
Please, Paul, if you take this to heart, do consult a person on this, an expert, perhaps a few different experts, to have a broader, and expert, opinion. You are under an illusion that simply does not work as you think.
Planning, figuring out, informing oneself before starting a big project, is better, and may well turn out cheaper, as your memorial idea would require enormous investment and would take up a huge area of the Western Heights.
If, on the contrary, it did pull off, and attracted many, apart from not being able to trigger off any substantial gain to the by far larger part of the local population, you still have to answer my point about the traffic.
Where would thousands, possibly tens of thousands, of cars park? On Western Heights?
In Pencester Gardens? Along the seafront?
These things must be thought through, and you haven't even answered these questions yet, although I mentioned this several times on this thread. Then there is the mentioned fact of Military Road with all its bends. How many accidents? People crossing over to visit the Heights on foot and being knocked down.
As for building hundreds of houses, on Western Heights and again in Farthingloe, I haven't brought the Farthingloe subject up, and was referring specifically to Western Heights with regards to building hundreds of houses. I simply believe it is unacceptable. It is contrary to the spirit of preservation of a Green and historical area.
But your proposal, which is also of Chris, Roger, Peter and Paul W, and a few others, is overwhelming: you want to build up Farthingloe with houses. and Western Heights with houses, and a mega memorial to attract millions of visitors, and a hotel, and park the cars God knows where.
All this while proclaiming untold prosperity with businesses suddenly springing up from nowhere, and thousands of new residents of the most skilled type coming and settling here, miraculously creating jobs for thousands of local unemployed, and somehow achieving within all this the miraculous renovation of the moats and barracks...
Paul, developers, in return for their prospected cash gains, will tell you all sorts of things, but please try consulting an independent party, some experts who are not developers, and get an expert opinion from someone who is not financially to gain from any proposed development in Dover.
Your information from developers preaching the Moon is something like the butcher convincing turkeys to come over for a Christmas party. The developers will take advantage of you, Paul, and of all of us. You need a broader opinion, and a viable financial plan, before claiming all the things you have claimed will come upon us in terms of economical and social and architectural regeneration.
With this very long post, I leave you to brood over it, and hope tomorrow will bring enlightenment to you.
As an example, see Ross' post, it does give you an idea that not all the public agree with everything you have proposed.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
One more thing came to me, Paul.
Have a read through some of Barry's posts over the years, just a general read of some of them.
He explains that over spending can lead to debt situations, requiring annual interest too.
Imagine you got us all into a debt situation here in Dover, a public debt, hoping for all sorts of prosperous outcomes, and these failed.
Who would then foot the bill?
It's a bit like the various port privatisation proposals, there are two such ideas, and both would require the Port to incur an enormous debt that would need be paid off with the interest.
You seem to occupy a tremendous position of authority and responsibility on the Western Heights, but go safe in the planning, because developers and investors will promise all things prior, but they will find a way of getting their money if the debts cannot be paid off.
There is no guarantee that large numbers of visitors would come, or that, if they did, the money they spent in shops would somehow pay off the expenses.
I'm thinking here in terms of all the projects proposed in the past, from hundreds of houses on the Heights, hotels, shops, lanes in DTIZ, cable cars from Western to Eastern Heights...
Is it financially viable, and what if we came out of it with a local public debt tthat we couldn't repay?
On the other hand, keeping to old fashioned English Heritage will keep you out of deep waters.
So, as Barry would say elsewhere, don't do a Gordon Brown on us, mate
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
Alexander, many of us have posted on here about the benefits to the Heights this will bring; I appreciate people have different views and your's is one of them.
Let me reassure you though that the public purse is not being opened here and there will be no massive public debt because of this development. It is private money that has and will be spent, not yours or mine.
Keeping to old-fashioned English Heritage is what causes concern and delay and slows progress.
Your analogy of the Port's "sell-off" is incorrect too; one half wants to sell it to the highest bidder and in doing so, create a community chest for Dover, where substantial sums can be put in; the other half want to buy the Port for the people of Dover so it will be owned locally and thereby create a community fund for the Town.
Roger
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
cor blimy alex thats an epic,on the war and peace scale.
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
I'll consider wasting more breath on this later - everyone has told you how enonomies of a successul town will work, I don't need consultants to tell me, i understand !!!!!!!!
Still what alternatives do you have?? Sit around watch the heritage fall apart, more shops close, Dovorian spending more of the money out of the area, tourists not bothinger to come, cruise lines not calling ??
What do you want Dover to be like in 10, 20, 30 yers time ????
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 703- Registered: 30 Jul 2010
- Posts: 2,096
This is the link to the listing of the Western Heights, which although a Scheduled Ancient Monument does not yet have Listed Building status but is currently going through the process.
http://list.english-heritage.org.uk/resultsingle.aspx?uid=1020298
When the Friends of Dover Castle was first formed about 30 years ago we organised a trip around the Drop Redoubt, and were told by English Heritage that they would be making it safe to open up as a visitor attraction complimentary to the castle in a couple of years. They also have another scheduled ancient monument in the Dover district which they won't even put up signs to in case people know it's there
This is a difficult one as if left as it is the site will still deteriorate, but any development needs to be sympathetic and needs the likes of Paul and Phil to keep an eagle eye not only on what is planned and but what actually happens, which can be two different things as happened with the old post office building.
One final point, Alexander is recommending we consult experts, can he enlighten us on which ones he has consulted to enable him to form his opinions?
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
" The missing link and one that many of us are working behind the scenes on is to raise the skill levels of locals to help attract skilled rather than unskilled jobs to the town."
Ross's last paragraph is the key to long term prosperity. Skilled workers from Eastern Europe fill the gap when there are insufficient skilled resources locally; foreign unskilled workers fill the gap when local people won't accept low wages. We don't want these construction projects executed by workers who will live in gangmasters' hostels and remit all their wages abroad.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 703- Registered: 30 Jul 2010
- Posts: 2,096
Crossing over with the Olympic thread there Peter, we were promised that many of the construction jobs would go to local workers, but foreign workers living in hostels within the area counted as locals.
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
I won't post any more on the economics as most if us understand that!!
However I drive through Dover even day, I don't live there, and at the moment it is an EMBARRASSMENT to see the untapped potential, don't we all need to work towards a Dover that we are all PROUD of ??
Been nice knowing you :)
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
paul,spot on.
Guest 700- Registered: 11 Jun 2010
- Posts: 2,868
absolutely, Paul.
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Lincolnshire Born and Bred
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Ray, so you are telling us all that independent experts have not been consulted to give an opinion on these many expensive and face-changing projects?
Or perhaps you have consulted English Heritage, and do not like their expert opinion?
Have only developers been consulted for an opinion? This should set alarm bells ringing!
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
What is English Heritage's expert opinion Alexander ?
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Is this your suggestion on what to do - sit by and do nothing??
"We must bear the hardships and hold out, there will never be another Dover."
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 703- Registered: 30 Jul 2010
- Posts: 2,096
Alexander, I wasn't telling you anything, I was asking you a question about how you came to your views!
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Paul, we live in economically hard times.
Public spending has been cut, and the Government has explained that it must be cut further still. The money is not there as it used to be, and the people have less financial availability now than ten, twenty or thirty years ago.
We cannot spend beyond our means.
Paul, I have seen and witnessed projects start, and then fail half way through. Building sites started, and then left uncompleted, with cement blocks standing there that were supposed to become houses.
You could end up with a started project, and Western Heights covered with holes and cement foundations, some cement columns sticking out, and then the developers, or building contractors, leaving half way through for lack of funds, or because no buyers came forward for the houses.
Do you have any proof that there are people willing to buy a house on Western Heights?
To regenerate the damage created then would cost as much as building the houses, once firms have to come and dismantle the cement blocks and put the original earth back in place.
It would never be the same though, but they too would require a very lot of money.
Take a look at the Burlington House mega project. How it failed!
It costs more to get rid of it then it did to build it. It's there, everyone hates it, but no-one can do anything about it. The money is not there.
Prior to building it, did they ever consult experts apart from developers. Nope! I lived in Dover then, and should know.
There are many such failed projects, mate. Keep safe in planning and seek professional advice, and stick to the green preservation of the Heights, without concrete.
Do this, and no-one can reprove you for your great work.
Mess it all up, and it will all be ruined.
Take this advice of mine from an old fox
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
You need to take risks in this world, without them we would still be living in caves and crossing the channel in hollowed out planks. Sounds nice but I'd have been dead by now !!
Opportunities are available that will never come around in my lifetime, without a funding opportunity like this there will probably be no heritage left !!
But it does need to be done right and sympathetically, and the latest plans I have seen and are (personally) getting close to what could be a sensible balance...
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
But when planning to take risks here, Paul, it is our Heritage you are risking!
I think a number of us have expressed our disagreement with your proposals.
Lara believes the war memorial plan is badly designed. She doesn't think anything of the idea to build a new residential complex either. She's also mentioned Military Road being unsuitable for traffic when it snows.
I would have nothing against a WW memorial on the Heights if it were a normal memorial, nothing grandiose that is planned to attract millions of visitors.
Ross and many he has spoken to believe that no houses should be built on Western Heights.
For me the same.
Your risks are not as popular as perhaps you at first thought.
Still you haven't replied to my question about the traffic in Dover and on the Heights that would ensue from your plans. Where would they all park? Assuming millions of people were attracted.
Most of all, your plans would see the death of the Green Area of Western Heights.
But have you asked how much developers would have to pay to put the moats in a position of stability? And how long would it last, before the next renovation need take place?
That said, the moats are generally designed to remain as they are, and you have not really explained to us what regeneration needs to take place on Western Heights for the renovation of the moats and barracks.
Is the Grand Shaft in danger of collapsing?
Are there dangers that moats or barracks will cave in?
Or is it just to cut overgrowing grass?
Give us at least some clues, Paul!
I haven't got a clue what you want to risk everything for, and ruin Western Heights in the process.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
good grief alex,how big is that chip on you shoulder.