DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
....and, if excellence needed promoting, then surely it wouldn't be excellence?
Square that with autocractic and meritocratic.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
But we are in danger of ending up where everything is equal and mediocre and where 'elite' is a dirty word.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
Can't you still have mediocre within inequality?
But yet we can have the mediocre elevated to the supposed elite within an autocratic system.
The way that our society condemns determinism within the unemployed yet celebrates it withn the aristocracy, coupled with the Protestant work ethic has always thrown me.
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
Jan;
Making a point that not everyone has the choice peter happily has is i feel a fair point.
We can all make a list of what we dislike about the conservatives as peter has done about socialists
but realy does it do much no not realy.
And of course i expected roger to have the view he has, he is a conservative at the end of the day.
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
how's this for an idea.less ball more locks.just a thought.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
Good to see you too Darren.
I wasn't sure I fully understood your last sentence: "The way that our society condemns determinism within the unemployed yet celebrates it within the aristocracy, coupled with the Protestant work ethic, has always thrown me".
I understand the part about unemployed aristocracy (although I'm not sure that society celebrates it), but not sure what you meant by "society condemns determinism within the unemployed". The only part I can appreciate on this - but at a basic level, is that my brother was unemplyed for quite a while, but determined to get a job and succeed on his own merits; he has now got a job, but although fairly secure, is minimum wage and keeps him down, or at least (at 59) stops him from progressing upwards.
What is the Protestant work ethic ?
Happy new year.
Keith, I'm a Conservative all of the day, not just at the end of it.
Roger
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Unemployed aristocracy? Darren, that is to say the least an out of touch old fashioned blinkered perspective. All the 'aristos' I know and have met work very hard indeed and cannot be described that way. I hope you realise that times have moved on since the 19th century.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Interesting point Darren.
(Roger, determinism is a philosopher's term for the concept that everything in the universe is pre-ordained by cause and effect within the constraints of physical laws. It has been kidnapped into the social lexicon to explain the fact that people feel trapped (negative sense) or secure (positive sense) within their 'class'. "I know my place", etc.)
Darren, you must by definition have good, bad and indifferent outcomes within inequality, surely? I don't think 'society' has views which are sufficiently homogeneous to justify your last sentence - which segment of society? And what's the Protestant work ethic got to do with the price of fish?
Surely compatibilism is a more realistic outlook on life, in which man's free will is one of the natural laws.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
Darren makes some interesting points
Roger yes you clearly show you are always a conservative
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
I now tend to refrain from posting on this type of thread, purely because I will be accused of being a left wing socialist dinosaur, simply attacking tory rhetoric.
Peter.
In answer to your #1882 question.
There is no danger of everything being "equal and mediocre".
I don't think that is what people are looking for anyway.
How can everyone be equal when we are all so different, in so many ways and mediocre is below best, so surely no one wants to settle for less than best?
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Gary, my point is that if you strive for equality you will end up with general mediocrity. If you encourage excellence you will achieve it in some and not in others. If, by promoting equality, you deny the opportunity for excellence you will have nothing for people to aspire to.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
Our MP`s have their snouts deep in the trough again......MP`s and peers have received hundreds
of thousands of pounds from arms manufacturers,pharmaceutical companies and foreign
governments to ``sponsor parliamentary speceial groups``
Dozens of all-party parliamentary groups have received funding and ``other benefits``from outside
organisations during the past 12 months reaching £ one million.
# 1882......nonsense.....there will always be excellence...especially...in a ``fair`` society.
# 1886....we always look after our brothers.....do we have to condemn the others as scroungers ?
# 1891.....again nonsense.......many people in any society will always aspire....
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
I have never yet seen you promote aspiration Reg - only socialist equality of mediocrity.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
barry,are you promoting porridge again.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
1892- re1882, yes there will always be excellence but it will be exceptional unless we encourage people to have a realistic aspiration to it. Excellence should not be the top 1% but the top half.
Re 1891, they will only aspire if the rewards are there. Aspirations and dreams are not the same thing.
Re 1886, why accuse Roger of condemning the others as scroungers? He said nothing of the kind.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
Peter.
That's where you miss my point.
Your standard of excellence and your qualities are only a benchmark for you.
To impose them on other's, as their aspirations, is not inspiring.
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Actually we agree Gary. My standards and aspirations are a matter for me to decide, yours are for you. We can encourage but we can never impose aspirations on others, by definition. But some need more encouragement than others. And that's fine because we are not all equal and never shall be.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
I don't think anyone said everyone should be equal
but there should be some fairness
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
Thanks Peter.
I don't take any notice of anything Reg says, as he has such a skewed view on everything; I don't understand why he can't write in prose, instead of short statements.
Whatever Reg says, Keith will agree and vice versa.
Roger
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
Roger
If you take the view you have just given the same happens for your conservative frends where you are quick to make sure you agree with them.
And that's fine we all know your a conservative 24/7 and all hunky dory
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS