Guest 700- Registered: 11 Jun 2010
- Posts: 2,868
7 December 2010
16:1283591#1
Further on the subject of workhouses, apparently Eastry was one of the most severe. Lots of different wards, included pest ward, infirmary, receiving ward, dissolute ward, etc. etc.
Here are one or two extracts from the guardians minutes: (I have a lot of info from the minutes in my indexes):
Mr PAIN (a guardian) offered to supply stones and pay the usual price for breaking, on account of the trustees of the Turnpike Road from Dover to Sandwich - it was resolved that the male vagrants be required to break four baskets of stones in return for every meal afforded to them 22.6.1847 (guardians minutes)
Elizabeth PAIN and three others were reported for having been guilty of riotous and disorderly conduct in the workhouse. As the most guilty of the party has been taken before magistrate and committed to prison, the punishment of the above named to be deferred. 16.5.1848 (guardians minutes)
Sophia PAIN: her conduct and abusive language was complained of, she was called in and acknowledged having spoken disrespectfully of the schoolmistress and expressed regret for her behaviour. She was informed that she should have complained to the matron and if she conducted herself disrespectfully towards any officers again she would be severely punished. 10.7.1850 (guardians minutes)
Thomas Clayton PAIN, one of the inmates, belonging to Deal and 64, committed suicide by cutting himself across stomach and throat with a razor. Inquest held - "temporary insanity" 25.1.1851 (guardians minutes)
Sophia PAIN and Mary PEART - complaint by the porter stating they opposed him in the execution of his duty. They were called and S.P. acknowledged having resisted the porter, and M.P. confessed that she opposed the porter and it appeared that she had been the most violent of the two. Resolved that MP be punished with 24 hrs solitary, and bread and water, and Sophia PAIN 12 hours. 17 Feb 1852 (guardians minutes)
Mr PAIN (a guardian) having understood that the boys received no instruction on Sundays - the board decided the boys attend school from 9 to 10 o'clock on Sundays and that the collects be learnt and repeated by them. 28.1.1853 (guardians minutes)
Mr PAIN reported he had visited the proposed site of the pig styes and it was suggested the styes should be erected against the new workhouse building adjoining the old men's day room, and that a pipe communication be laid from the drain adjoining the styes to the General Cesspool. 26.4.1853 (guardians minutes)
Sophia PAIN and Mary PEART having first agreed to enter Mr COLLARD's service, afterwards refused to take the situations offered to them. (note by transcriber: Sophia PAIN gave birth to another child on Nov 8 1853). Sophia PAIN stated she would have been willing to go to Mr COLLARD, but she found that her mother could not take charge of her child, and on a former occasion she had placed one with another person and the child had lost its life. 10 May 1853 (guardians minutes)
Mr PAIN informed the board that the wheat put into the workhouse garden is expected to prove a failure.
10.5.1853 (guardians minutes)
Mr PAIN said that last week when he visited the women's house, the great accumulation of bugs was pointed out, and he hoped that something could be done to destroy them. 31.5.1853 (guardians minutes)
Mr PAIN:
Revd Mr BRADDON read a letter from Milton Workhouse explaining the means the master had used with effect in the destruction of bugs. Directions would be given to the master on the subject, and Rev. BRADDON, Mr PAIN and Mr WACHER be appointed a committee. 7.6.1853 (guardians minutes)
Sophia PAIN and Ann HOPPER: the master remarked that the medical officer does not consider it safe for these women in their present condition to remain in the dissolute ward, and the master said they had behaved so well last week during the disorderly conduct of others that he hoped that their cases would be considered. They were called in and informed that in consequence of their good behaviour last week the board had consented to their release from the dissolute ward, for which they appeared to be most grateful. 28.10.1853
And later: the Master reported that Sophia PAIN was confined in the workhouse on 2 November
8.11.1853 (guardians minutes)
George PAIN aged 9 and another, absconded when out for walk. 30.7.1877 (master's reports)
Revd D. Bruce PAYNE, DD invited 80 old men and women to be taken to Deal on Wednesday last. They enjoyed themselves very much. 10 Sept 1894 (master's reports)
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and something a bit more unusual.... from the minutes...
From Eastry (Kent) Union Workhouse:
At meeting on 17.5.1853
It was decided that one sheet of paper per week be supplied to each inmate to stop the use of rag etc. in the water closets
and later:
The Clerk said as it had been decided that waste paper should be provided for the use of the workhouse inmates in the water closets, he had procured half a ream from Mr BAYLEY of Eastry at 4 shillings.
The Clerk suggested that the Goods Tickets issued by the Relieving Officers, of which there is a great quantity in his possession, may be used for the purpose required, first removing the pins, which he considers could be done by the girls, this would effect not only the saving in the purchase of paper but of pins also, which could be made use of again. This suggestion was adopted. Minute dated 24.5.1853
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Lincolnshire Born and Bred
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
7 December 2010
17:2683598#2
Oh no Im going to commit a cardinal sin and bring Politics into it, but on the day the Tories are going soft on crime, I see above that even those in the workhouses had to break four baskets of rocks for every meal. And these people werent even criminals. But a strong lessen learnt about the value of things.
Oh no a bit more politics...but being too soft on offenders as is now currently proposed by Mr Clarke, well it teaches people nothing other than that crime is a soft option, easy to do and no problem if you get caught. Doesnt teach anyone a lessen of any kind.
Nowadays sadly we know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
7 December 2010
17:5283602#3
I worked in a workhouse in Dover with my dad it was call the D.E.W and it was very hard work to.
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,948
7 December 2010
18:1383607#4
Paulb
As your aware i'm never frightened t put my head up and argue my corner.
sometimes people dont like to hear my view and thats fine, but the forum i believe has grown from its early days.
but getting back to the thread
paulb
the problem all govts face is that the prisons are full and so like the govt before it, this govt is also releasing prisoners of so called small crime.
there are a number of problems with this;
including;
people committing small crime know they will be unlikely to be jailed, of course if small crimes go unpunished these can become a license to try bigger crime
releasing prisoners committed of crimes sends out wrong signals
thing is, with the prisons full, room has to be made for bigger crimes, so releasing small time criminals is this govts view at this time.
of course, if you had the unhappy experience of someone raiding your house, getting caught, then as good as released would you be happy?
everyone states send them to prison, which in reality isnt the answer, many more serious crimes should go to jail, but we should look at alternatives for small time criminals
then of course we have the evidence that jailing people also doesnt work just takes people off the street for a while, but at a very big cost to me and you.
theres lot more to debate on this one
theres my starter for ten lol
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
7 December 2010
18:3483612#5
quite right paulb and keith, the message being clearly sent is that prison is a less and less likely option for our judiciary to dish out to burglars and the like.
i go along with keith about community based sentences for low level offending, i do not consider breaking into someone else's home low level though.
we have debated this many times but this time the justice secretary is really just trying to impress his masters by saving money and looking good in front of dave.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
7 December 2010
22:3383638#6
One of the functions of workhouses was to reduce the poor-tax which the parishes had to pay to the poor. Services offered by workhouses in the economy, such as supplying labour for roadworks, brought in money to finance the workhouses, like paying for food, and so-by meant less burden on the parishes. People in a workhouse could use their experience to find work elsewhere, but then they would have to find a house and pay the rent, which could prove very difficult.
The inintial ideas of Common Wealth of the early sixteenth century and late in the seventeenth century never materialised, hence there was a disparity in wealth between rich and poor.
(Henry VIII kept most of the confiscated lands and riches of the monasteries for himself and his political allies, after ruining the monastery economy which was parallel and inter-active with the rest of the economy). The poor laws and the workhouses were a consequence of the dissolution policy.
Following up on PaulB's idea to bring politics in, I wonder if one day we might have a Commonwealth that offers a better and fairer deal to the people in general in our Country, where-by Commonwealth here should not be misunderstood as unity with India, but in the originally intended context of 4-5 hundred years ago, around the time of Queen Anne Boylin.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
8 December 2010
08:1483653#7
I think Ken Clarke has got it totally and utterley wrong.
Burglary is not a low-level crime and all burglars deserve a custodial sentence.
People who should not go to prison are those who commit "white-collar" crimes - non-payment of council tax, tax-evasion, crimes to do with small amounts of money (what is a small amount I hear you ask).
These people should have their assets taken away from them, as well as doing meaningful community service.
People from overseas who commit crimes should be deported back to their own country to serve their sentence, not here at our expense.
Longer sentences should also be imposed for serious crimes.
Prisons should be so awful (not with sadistic warders) that people really do not want to return there.
Roger
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
8 December 2010
09:4983661#8
roger,i partly agree with you,but crime is crime what ever way you look at it.to be honest prisons at the moment are to soft with tvs,psps etc.all prisoners should do construtive work to pay for there keep.so in concluesion no tvs,no gamestations etc.
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
8 December 2010
13:3683691#9
I think there is a fair degree of agreement on this across all sides of the political divide...in that no one at all seems to agree with Ken Clarke. Soft on crime thinking is a real shocker for some if not most Tories, and every other political hue for that matter. Other than saving money the plan has nothing at all going for it.
If Michael Howard, former Home Secretary and Folkestone MP ( Conservative) had croaked it some years back he would be now spinning in his grave. Fortunately Michael is still with us and still spouting his very effective line that
"Prison Works!"
Prison does work in that in keeps offenders off the streets and elsewhere were they cannot terrorise neighbourhoods and so on and commit further crime. Prison is very effective.
The problem in all this is when people start assuming that Prison should be a rehab centre. Prison should not be for rehabilitation, thats where we all go askew, but for punishment. You do the crime you serve the time. Even criminals know where they are with that one.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,948
8 December 2010
15:3283698#10
I partly agree with Roger, let me explain,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Yep prisons should be a place that is feared by all, some where no one wants to go.
To many do gooders give prisoners to much time, iv been lucky enough to know right from wrong and never been in prison and unlikely to be.
but snooker tables, tv etc come on,,,,
Lads army comes to mind, but looked at from a prison background.
Ken clarke cant just balance the books on this one.
a proper review and sort out what we do with petty crime
just remember if petty criminals do get away with things thiscan lead to them
committing more bigger crimes.
Tougher jails is a start, anyone who commits crime should fear what will come next.
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
8 December 2010
15:5183701#11
i think things like snooker tables and t.v. sets are there mainly to protect prison staff.
they are under staffed and bored prisoners can be a serious hazard, i have never seen the point of locking people in cells for 23 hours per day.
there must be some work that can be done within the prison.
10 December 2010
12:4483913#12
Spookily there is a good article about workhouses in this month's BBC History Magazine. Will pass it on if anyone wants to read it. Also recommends places that can be visited.
Provision of state-funded poor relief was crystallised in the 1601 Poor Relief Act.
Although the institutions were termed "work-houses" they were originally more often than not, non-residential, offering handouts in return for work. In 1723 the Workhouse Test Act won parliamentary approval, and this embodied the principle that the prospect of the workhouse should act as a deterrent and that relief should only be available to those desperate enough to accept its regime.
After 1834, if allowed into a workhouse, families would be assessed. Men and women separated, as were able-bodied and infirm. Those who were able to work did so for bed and board. Parents and children were allowed to meet briefly daily or on Sundays.
