Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
Roger
Glad to read your brother has found employment.
The call centre jobs attracted a salary of £20k and the city mentioned was Coventry.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 705- Registered: 23 Sep 2010
- Posts: 661
Those who don't want to work or enter training - place them all on minimal benefit-permanently and out of the way to a new notional lazy people community. Those who do wish to work-and that won't be difficult to define-pay them all the money that you don't pay to the lazy people in the form of major monthly tax refunds-reward them well. It would be a major event to leave the lazy person faction and transfer back to the working community-with total evidence of attitude change required. Sure there would be stigma-but so what?-that would be part of the plan.
Never give up...
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Blimey - a few days break and this forum is full of threads!!!!
Cant let a few of you get away with certain comments without challenge though.
First of all Howard, the minimum wage policy is one based on excessively simplistic thinking and a lack of understanding of the markets. The minimum wage is not a boon to the low paid at all, if anything it has created a low pay norm that locks people into low pay by reducing pay competition, aided and abetted by Labour's immigration free for all. The government should get rid of the minimum wage and get on with clamping down hard on immigration if it wants to improve wages.
Let us also be clear about something else. Businesses like mine want customers and that means people with the money to spend on their goods and services. The more people who have disposable cash the better. It is not in the interests of businesses to have a low wage economy and certainly not huge numbers of unemployed. Again it is simplistic short sighted thinking to suggest otherwise. There is a balance that must be struck that suits the needs of the economy, businesses and employees based on supply and demand.
Yes, to the subject of this thread - the government does need to clamp down on those who scrounge off the system and to also address our dreadfully unbalanced benefits system that makes living on benefit a lifestyle choice for some.
Roger - it is wonderful that your brother has found a job - well done him and good luck with it! He has some great support in you and Jean.
And you are right about the job centres - antiquated and mis-managed, meeting little or no purpose. Having said that I have been in the one on Maison Dieu Road and have heard the most awful abuse hurled at staff if they won't hand over cash or benefits immediately and no questions asked - usually hurled by a child-mother with a clutch of babies and a new expensive buggy or a large tattooed man smelling of last nights beer. Or a combination of the two.
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,895
Roger, well done to your brother he has had a long search for that job I hope all goes well for him.
My grandson Dan, when he lost his job, also found the his local job centre in Plymouth was useless and of no help at all not even with the benefit claims, they need a big shake up.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
congratulations indeed to roger's brother.
barry
the minimum wage does not lock people into low pay at all, many companies that were paying the minimum wage have raised rates in order to keep better staff.
ll it has done is to stop the scandal of people working for 2 or 3 quid an hour.
Guest 717- Registered: 16 Jun 2011
- Posts: 468
Speaking to a friend in the US did you know they tried out vouchers for those claiming benefits? This was then exchanged by the receivers for less money than they were worth, hence they could still buy alcohol etc.
Not a bad idea (food, clothing and limited leisure vouchers) but can be messed with too easily. I wonder if it did happen how many of those who choose to live on benefits, and only those who 'choose', suddenly find a job.
Keeps politics to myself
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
ALEXANDER;
I believe marek has replied in full so i dont need to reply further as i share all his comments.
BARRYW;
Minimum wage as howard says was a god send to many
ROGER/OTHERS
The job centres have a lot to answer for, let me give you an example
i went in there just to see what went down, and to look for work
some time ago, i went downstairs to a very rude lady to told me i needed an interview upstairs, so upstsairs i trape, and the lady upstairs(obviously got out of bed the wrong side)asked me for my details, as this was the very same dept, i said iv just given it to your friend downstairs, she said sorry data protection shes not allowed to tell me, i said words to the effect of rollocks
thats not what the data protection act is about and im happy to speak to her to authorise you to have the info she said she couldnt
so with that i said look mrs im obviously wasting your time you wont see me here me again i will find my own way to get into employment goodbye
and off i toddled
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
bureaucracy at its worst, you'd think with job losses forecast at the jobcentres they would be keen to put on a good impression.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
And a curse to just as many as well Keith.
Howard clearly has bought the simplistic spin about the minimum wage. This is a prime example of a simple idea that appears to do good is counter productive in its real-life impact.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
the job centre is a last place most people want to go
being treated like a leper is not my idea of help.
didnt need them anyway
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
nice try barry, i don't fall for political spin from any direction.
making that argument shows a lack of a proper answer on your part.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Keith, I won't even bother commenting on Marek's reply, that is as much as it is worth!
Keeping to the particular point, if you believe anyone on £65 a week JSA can afford to spend all day in a pub, I feel somewhat sorry for you!
In Britain, official unemployment is 7,7%, however the real figure is no doubt much higher. But, the official figure that calculates 7,7% unemployment also calculates that among people aged between 16 and 24, the unemployment rate is over 20%.
I have an idea that some people making comments about young unemployed people receive a pension, they do not fear an essential deprivation of their own financial situation in the future, they feel themselves guaranteed.
When they were younger and working, they no doubt didn't have the same economic situation to deal with as we know it now. That were the days when unemployment was so much lower, and the State did not have sovereign debt anywhere near as high as it is now.
There were many things that needed sorting out then in the economy, but instead it got so much worse (unemployment, national debt).
I feel sorry for the society that has 20% youth unemployment, a work-market freely open to 27 countries, where 90% of the jobs fo to foreign workers.
But it really is not my fault, and on this note, I do not feel in any way guilty. There isn't really anything else to say about it all.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Howard, mmm, but you certainly seem to have on this issue. I have argued this many times before in more detail and can't be bothered to do so again. I maintain what I say - the minimum wage is a disaster for many in work.
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,707
Barry - "many" is a bit of hyperbole - the reality of the minimum wage is that it has proven to be a bit of a Curates Egg. For a the majority the minimum wage has worked, for a minority it has held them back as it has acted as a disincentive to their employers to increase wages to reflect skills/productivity. For an even smaller minority it has been a disaster as their employer just goes round the rules and still pays below minimum to people desperate to earn something.
Alexander - get yourself down to The Eight Bells and tell me how many of those sitting there at 10 in the morning are in full employment, or have some other form of income other than benefits. Also one can take paid employment up to 15 hours per week without losing benefits, so many do this to top up their benefits - to be fair most of these are not the ones you find drinking in the street or propping up the bars of town centre Weatherspoons or Yates.
There is plenty of evidence to show that those that are second or third generation in a household that has never had work tend to under perform at school and head straight to the benefits queue at the earliest possibility - it is this cycle that we need to break. However as I posted on Barry's blog if we do not sort out the education system and create manufacturing enterprises and apprenticeships we are dooming a further generation to the indignity of benefits.
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Ross - I do think 'many' is appropriate. There is a knock-on effect on aspiration. People on a low wage need not remain always on such a wage but with the minimum wage it becomes all the harder for them to find better paid work suited to their experience. The over-supply of immigrants as I said in post #23 is part of the problem here as well. A glut of supply keeps wages low. My solution is two-fold, restrict immigration and get rid of the minimum wage.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
baz;
your party is doing no more than the last party to restrict immigration, even if that were the way forward.
for many the minimum wage has got them off benefits and enabvled them to better themselves.
ROSS;
I find myself agreeing with you in reply to alexander
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Ross, you might be right that some people on JSA go to have a drink now and then, but their spending capacity is by nature limited, as benefits need to cover shopping too, and barely suffice even for this.
You mention that there are households where people are permanently unemployed.
Now I do agree that the State ought to help out with discipline, equally for those who are long-term unemployed and for people who are earnestly trying to find work.
I have myself expressed my view on this in the past on the Forum, we need a kind of regimentalism for people in need of training in factories and on farms an in other spheres of work.
Essentially it would mean joining a company, agreeing to some basic principles (comradeship, self-discipline, no swearing while on duty etc.), listening to some speeches on the virtues of working and living for a cause, doing some cross-country walking, some exercise at the gym, learning to be up at 6 AM during the training period, and then entering a factory with the company, accompanied by the trainers, learning the job, and then getting the job, either part-time or full-time.
However, in our present system of affairs, this is where it ends, namely as a dream. Because then the laws of the State come in and say: ah no! the private employer can employ who they want, not who they are told to employ!
And the anti-discrimination advocates chime in, saying that all people from 27 EU countries have the right to work here.
Hence we end up back at base 1: the news-papers keep complaining that 90% of jobs go to foreign workers, Labour MPs make a study and come to the same conclusion, and confront the Govenment with it, pointing out that they are no better than the last Labour government in this respect.
The Government then underlines the fact that about 5 million people in Britain are on out-of-work related benefits, and that youth unemployment (age16-24) is at over 20%.
Ross, I really don't know what else to say or write, because many of us seem to say the same thing, really, that we need some sort of discipline to get our unemployed to work, whether they are lazy or not, but no-one seems to have the courage to just go and do it.
I don't bring up threads on this topic, because I've been through it all already, and said everything.
However, going back to post 1, may I ask a question: Does anyone here have an idea what to do about it?
I mean, about the fact that unemployment here in Britain involves millions of people, and is particularly high among the young people.
I've seen many times, here in Dover, young eastern Europeans crowded around a lap-top, looking for vacant jobs.
I've heard them complaining, telling me that the agency lies to them, and that they only work one week and not the other, or three days a week and not five, and that they can't afford to pay the rent, that they have families in the East...
I feel sorry for them too, and at least I KNOW their reality, and don't live in a cloud cukko land, and don't paint pictures through black/white descriptions, where everyone is either "lazy" or "works".
Equally, many unemployed British people are desparate to work and earn a decent wage.
If I look on an eastern European jobsite, I see that over there, in the East, there are not near enough vacant jobs for the local people, and that those vacant are at a salary of about 300-400 euros a month for full time(factory/cleaning etc.).
So many come here or to other western countries, and quite a few end up being frustrated, as work agencies often find them work for employers who will use them to their own ends, namely when they need them, and not when they don't need them.
The very reasons for which many such private-sector employers will not even TRY employing British people.
In fact, some people here on the Forum, I have noticed, have no idea of what signing on means and implies, yet talk as if they KNEW everything!
You cannot sign off and work for two weeks in a factory, renouncing your JSA and houing benefits, and then, after 2 weeks, when the factory tells you to stay at home and wait... 1 day...2 days...3 days.. a week... with NO pay, pretend it is NORMAL.
In fact, by then, you'll find that you cannot pay your rent, do your shopping, so you MUST sign on again, and wait a whole month before your JSA and housing benefits start coming in.
So, the private sector employer who wants cheap random labour, who also knows all this, will only look for eastern Europeans who are accustomed to 1 euro or 2 euros an hour, offering them £5.93 an hour, but on an AGENCY contract, which means they can tell them when and if to come to work, and lay them off at a moment's notice without any redundancy.
Sickpay: NOTHING!
No matter what the "know-alls" come out with, or how much they claim to "know" everything about "lazy people claimimng benefits", I'm a little tired of it all.
Usually I say nothing, but sometimes one must put a word in.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
ALEXANDER;
Your text is very long and has been answered by both MAREK and now ROSS both cant be wrong.
All i can say(and others have indicated) i see the same people in the eight bells and the albert day and night, and all are supposidly on the dole.
I couldn't afford this day in and day out(nor would i want to)
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
i must admit that i thought that was one of alex's better posts.
we can all pontificate about the virtues or otherwise of the stalwarts of the eight bells, the truth is that the ordinary jobseeker gets around 60 quid a week to pay for their food, gas, electricity and water.
our thirsty friends receive more to fuel their problem as evidenced by dave at number 10.
hands up all those who think he will do something about it.
