Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
15 January 2011
09:2389023#1
During the week there was a debate in the House of Lords about Turkey and its possible inclusion in the European Union. Yours truly just caught a section of the debate in the late night review of parliament on Radio Four.
But it was wildly fascinating in that peer after peer spoke in huge favour, not half hearted favour but hugely in favour, of Turkey joining the EU. Most of the peers speaking in the piece I heard were Conservative peers....and they were 'appalled to see' that the EU itself was dragging its feet on Turkeys inclusion.
I say this is fascinating and it is...as there are suggestions abroad in the air that the Conservatives are somehow anti EU.
Not so. As we know within moments of being elected Mr Cameron was over in Turkey also flagging up the Turkish cause. So I am rather amazed by all this.
There are loads of reasons why Im amazed but just let me quote one or otherwise we will be here all day.
The biggest problem about Muslim Turkey joining the essentially Christian EU ( faiths were brought up in the debate) is not just one of canyon gapping cultural differences, but the fact that the Conservatives as well as everyone else know that once any country is inside the EU they have the opportunity of massed migration within the EU. No politician, no government can hold you out once inside the EU. In other words, once you are inside the EU club, you can migrate anywhere you want.
Clearly one of the most annoying problems the UK citizen encounters is that everyone on his street is from somewhere else...and taking jobs. So with a Turkish population, and it is a large population, inside the EU your local High Strreet will inevitably be flooded out with yet more unstoppable immigrants seeking work.
Some saw the Conservatives as being tough on the EU. It was their clear message for a long time...but now in power they are not only fully embracing the EU but wanting its expansion and its immigrants. Im not sure why, it is extremely baffling to me.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
15 January 2011
09:3889027#2
The problem is the malign infuence of the Libdems. PaulB - you seem to forget we sadly do not have a Conservative Government. The EU was a make of break issue for forming a government. The economy is the big issue and what must be got onto the right track and that has taken priority for Cameron, not side issues like the EU.
A lot of anti-EU members see the expansion of the EU as the best way to destroy it. Personally there are some good arguments for that and Turkey may be the step too far, that is why I am not too bothered about it.
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,948
15 January 2011
10:0289031#3
paub
theres a big differene between wanting to destroy the EU and like you say the embracing of Turkey.
passioned speeches by tory peers for there inclusion.
you do wonder why turkey?
but barryw is a bit wide of the mark and either hes out of touch with the peers
or the peers are out of touch with tory thinking
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
15 January 2011
10:1289032#4
No keith - I am passing on what I know of the views of some ant-EU Tories in respect of the EU and Turkey. They may have a point and, if Turkey is admitted, I sincerely hope they are right.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,948
15 January 2011
10:3389033#5
I hope that your wrong baz
sad that the tories in europe are not in tune with the tories in the UK
if the tories believe in pulling out then go for it
don't dilly dally pretending your everything to all
you get found out.
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
15 January 2011
10:4289034#6
barry mentions the yellows in relation to the pro eu coalition but it was dave that went to turkey and as paul stated in the thread starter it was blue peers who were demanding the inclusion of turkey.
i do not see any problem with religion as turkey is a secular state and islam takes second place in political matters.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,948
15 January 2011
10:5689037#7
thats the real problem the tories are split on europe and have the added problem of there frends the lib dems who are pro europe.
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
15 January 2011
12:2189051#8
In my opinion the Tories failed to secure a majority at the last general election because the party leadership was too soft on Europe; the rank and file Tory voter is generally far more Euro-sceptic than the Westminster lot. Hence UKIP has picked up the majority of its increased vote from previously loyal Tories who have become disaffected over the Europe issue.
But paradoxically, while the mood of the country is getting more and more euro-sceptic, the coalition is being forced the other way as a result of the Faustian deal between Clegg and Cameron.
If the Tories are to be in with a chance of winning the next election they will have to get back the voters who no longer trust them on Europe. The first step to winning back that trust will be to hold the referendum which was promised and which we have so far been denied. Turkey is a side issue at the moment, and if we were to leave the EU or step down to some sort of associate membership, it would be a non-issue as far as the UK is concerned.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
15 January 2011
12:4389058#9
i think europe was just one isssue why they did not secure a majority, the other one being their negative campaigning.
lord aschcroft was adamant that was the reason.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
15 January 2011
13:1989063#10
Ashcroft would say that as he is a Euro-luvvie who lives in Costa Rica.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
15 January 2011
16:1489082#11
seeing that turkey is the gateway to asia it may be a good move to let them join the eu.it allso could open up more trade routes.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
15 January 2011
17:2689096#12
Turkey's borders with Iran and Syria are more than a little porous.......
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
15 January 2011
18:2889111#13
if they were invited in, it doen't necessarily mean that we would be inundated with more people.
other countries in the european union made different deals when it was expanded a couple of years back.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
15 January 2011
20:0589136#14
peter,most of the world is porous.iran and syria have nothing to do with the eu.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
15 January 2011
20:2789137#15
brian
i think that peter was referring to the situation of iran and syria being run by some rather unpleasant people who can manage to get
their nasties into turkey, once there they have freedom of movement across as far as us.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
15 January 2011
20:4189138#16
Yes, Howard, exactly that. Turkey also shares a border with Iraq, Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia, all of which are dangerous places. Personally I would rather keep Turkey as a buffer.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
15 January 2011
20:5489139#17
peter,i like turkey at christmass,but if you want to donner kebab it with iran and syria thats up to you.untill turkey is in the eu you have nothing to worry about,unless you believe all american properganda and paranoia,then you and the rest of the are in deep crap.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
15 January 2011
20:5489140#18
PaulB, you sadly seem to forget that we do not have a Tory Government!! Words from BarryW!
Also, the EU is a sideline issue, word from BarryW who has put up threads of brimstone and fire against the EU!
Anyway, some issues to take into account concerning Turkey: The Turkish-speaking population has an average birthrate that is higher than most European countries, with the exception of the Muslim Albanians in Albania and Kosovo.
The Kurdish-speaking population of Turkey has a birth-rate on average of about twelve children per family, possibly ten children, similar to the Palestinians, and I believe it is the highest birth-rate in the world.
In the past years, Turkey has done a lot to be fairer towards the Kurds and their culture, and the Kurds of Turkey, as Turkish citizens, have massively expanded from Turkish Kurdistan to other parts of Turkey, includimg Istanbul. So nothing to say against Turkish policies here, as the Kurds of Turkey have their best friends in the Turkish-speaking population, who allow them freedom of settlement anywhere in Turkey!
Germany has a very large population of Turks and Kurds, both groups from Turkey. The Turkish Kurds tend to define themselves as being from Anatolia. The German government a few years back, whose views were publicly expressed by Mrs. Merkel (CDU), stated that Turkey should not join the EU, and noted that Turkey has special economic priviledged relations with Germany, in other words a favoured trading agreement that priviledges Turkey. The Germans generally consider this a concession to Turkey that should be enough to exclude Turkish membership of the EU.
If millions of Kurds started emigrating to Germany and Britain, the population increase here and in Germany would lead to a change in national identity within a few decades, as each Kurdish family would have about ten children. Now does anyone think that the Germans, who have millions of people living in Germany who consider themselves as Turkish or Kurdish even when they are from the third generation born in Germany, would accept Turkey joining the EU and millions more people just emigrating to Germany, and then having a birthrate of five to ten children per family?
I don't know what Mr. Cameron or the Tory peers think, but I do know that they receive a salary that goes way beyond that what most people here receive. They also have guaranteed jobs.
But they also seem to be making decisions that concern other countries, such as Germany, and not only Britain, when advocating that Turkey should join the EU.
Are they aware of what they are actually doing and could be causing? May-be they forgot that there are also other countries in the EU who could be affected by their decisions!!
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
15 January 2011
20:5889141#19
Is this a responsible way of going about important issues, that what the Government is doing, without ever bothering to consult us, the People, OR the people of European nations whose destiny they are medling in?
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
15 January 2011
21:0589142#20
I will go to the audacity of stating that may-be the Government should read the history of Germany after the First World War and note what a horrific state the German economy plunged into, and what suffering it led to.