howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#1
courtesy of the daily mail.
Nearly two thirds of criminals avoid jail despite amassing at least 15 convictions, shocking figures show.
Instead of being put behind bars, more than 62,000 offenders were given lesser punishments, such as community service or a fine, last year.
More than 4,000 walked out of court with only a caution. The figures reveal that serial offenders are less likely to be given a jail sentence today than at any time in the past decade.
And they further raise concerns that career criminals, including drug dealers and burglars, are getting only a 'slap on the wrist'.
Tory MP Douglas Carswell said: 'Many of my constituents are losing faith in the criminal justice system because - as these figures show - even when people have become habitual offenders they are not actually brought to justice.
'The criminal justice system simply doesn't administer what my constituents regard as justice.
#2
Define "justice". Also. let's look at the bigger picture - sometimes it is better to focus on reducing re-offending than on retribution. What would you prefer - to stop it happening again or to pay a fortune on B&B for someone to meet fresh new criminals to pal up with?
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#3
jusitice to me is about protecting the innocent as much as it is possible to do.
i doubt that there is nothing that will stop a serial offender committing more offences than jail.
of course first offenders can be worked on to get them to stop taking the downwards path, not someone with a minimum of 15 convictions though.
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
#4
This is one of those chicken and egg legal situations.
There are those who want rehab to try and stop habitual re-offenders re-offending, and there are those who want to lock 'em up so they simply just cannot re-offend.
Michael Howard. Home Secretary of note in a previous administration, was distinctly of the second school as I remember. He used to get big cheers and much back slapping at Conservative Party conferences on such matters..there was one particular moment of popular rapture when he said... "prison works"..it brought the house down.
This second solution is good if you have plenty of prisons, plenty of staff to staff the prisons, plenty of social rehabilitation/indoctrination etc, but .. and yes you know the next but...these things cost money.
Once upon a time the Conservatives were the law and order party but alas no longer, they have lost the initiative. Even the staunch Tory newspaper is critical as we see above. The Conservatives now appear to penny pinch in their approach to criminality, and you can see that in the feature at the top of the page. Ken Clarke, affable guy in the suede shoes, is making a balls of it currently.
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,948
#5
PAULB;
Yep paulb they(tories)were the law and orer party, but they lost it.
now it's in a real mess.
something has to give
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
#6
Law and Order and value for money are not mutually exclusive. As with most things it is the efficient and targeted delivery that counts. That, and pin sharp objectives.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
#7
Prison does work - while people are in prison they cannot commit crimes.
If prison is not an option, what deterrent is there for these people not to commit burglary, robbery, muggins, rape, even murder; if crimes go unpunished, the Government is not looking after its citizens and it must have a responsibility to do so.
Roger
#8
As we have already seen, there are countless recidivists, so clearly it is not a deterrent!! I have no problem with punishment - indeed, it is essential - but it has to do more than just that. You probably know that I think there are some people who should never, ever, be let out, but that doesn't mean locking up is the answer to everything!
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#9
the thing is that when they are inside they are not burgling our houses for that period of time.
i only posted the bare bones of the report, but the career criminals now know that they are unlikely to go to prison, hence there is no incentive to go straight.
we also know that there will be fewer police officers in future so the chances of getting caught are minimal.
#10
It's a complex issue, that's for sure. It's so important to really look at the means to reduce re-offending given the budget challenges, and the evidence that prison on its own so obviously doesn't do he job. There has to be a more cohesive and focussed approach that includes the element of punishment but doesn't ignore the need to tackle the other bits. If we really do want to reduce crime we need to think outside the box and drop the prejudices and knee-jerk responses. Asking the question "what do we want to achieve?" is a good start.
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,709
#11
Re your post #3 Howard a good start would be to get rid of the Daily Mail and its biased reactionary reporting
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
#12
Nice one Ross! Incidentally, Douglas (#1) is reflecting, quite rightly, his constituents fears rather than a judgement or solution. He sits in his surgery and hears those fears - he is duty bound to reflect and raise them, so fair play to him - he is doing the right thing.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#13
much as dislike the daily mail the article is based on official figures, that cannot be ignored.
i make a point on posting from a variety of sources in the interests of balance.
#14
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If you see the vehicle, pictured below, and have reason to believe that it is the suspect vehicle, you are urged to contact your local police station.[IMAGE]/df-imported/forum-images/351-1306783732.jpeg[/IMAGE]
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
#15
Ross - perhaps we should get rid of the Daily Mirror and Guardian with their biased reporting and obnoxious attitudes and simple stupidity.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
#16
Back to the subject - the British so called Criminal Justice system is a total joke.
To correct the situation we have to get woolly headed liberal and social worker types out of it and restore some serious punishment with proper sentencing.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#17
that will not happen under this government barry.
getting back to the newspaper issue i notice that politically oriented people tend to buy the newspaper that will confirm their prejudices.
the only paper i buy is the "independent" simply because it investigates thing, publishes facts and leaves the reader to reach a conclusion.
on line i like the guardian and telegraph but both are selctive in what they print.
Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,709
#18
Barry - I agree about the Mirror - I would als oat the same time get rid of the Sun and Express for similar reasons
to be honest non of the "red tops" are worth the paper they are printed on - they give little information, sensationalise stories often inappropriately, regularly report out of context, rarely if ever follow up stories etc.etc.
Having said that non of the old broadsheets are much better
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,709
#19
As for the contention that "proper sentencing" will solve the problem - it is nonsense; all the academic studies i have seen suggest it is much much more complex than that and tough sentencing on its own does not act as any form of deterrence and does not prevent re-offending - of course that doesnt play well to the shire county "hang em and flog em" set that are the bedrock of the Tory party.
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
#20
If community service sentences were sufficiently rigorous and unpleasant, and effectively enforced, prison for relatively trivial offences would be unnecessary.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson