howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
15 December 2010
19:3984805i think that barry is intentionally moving attention away from the evil cuts this thread is about and making a generalised benefit issue.
incidentally maybe paulw can fill us in on the subject of carehome costs.
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
15 December 2010
20:2784831howard,quite possably suggesting that these so called scroungers are put down at birth.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
15 December 2010
21:0284850no, no and thrice no brian, barry is not that right wing.
actually after giving your post a little thought!!
15 December 2010
21:1384856This thread was clearly about ILF when it started, and BarryW, you took it out and towards benefits and saving money. "Disability" covers a wide range of issues from tinnitus to arthritis to depression, quadraplegia, MS, ME, bipolar, OCD, amputation, autism, scoliosis, and so on. Some are born with it and some aren't. Some have had an opportunity to earn and some haven't. BUT if you haven't experienced or witnessed the outright and offensive discrimination and challenge that people with all kinds of disabilities have no choice but to experience perhaps you might be slower to prescribe behaviours. There are more important things than money, even though money can buy support and comfort. If it is the prime driver it forces a fog of ice over Life. Money is a means to an end and useful but not valuable in the way a human being is valuable.
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,706
15 December 2010
21:5584865This is a very emotive subject, whilst I believe we as a civilised nation have a duty of care to those who genuinely are unable to provide for themselves through chronic illness or disability, it is important that what we do for them does not lock them into poverty, or force them into institutionalised care; but affords them the dignity of living in their own home for as long as that is a viable option. It is also important to separate the delivery of this support from the funding of it.
It is unreasonable of any government to withdraw this assistance without first ensuring that a reasonable and viable long term alternative is available, irrespective of who delivers it or for that matter funds it. I am all for the third sector getting more involved in delivering these types of benefits, as they have the flexibility to tailor solutions to meet the real needs of the beneficiaries, however the state must still provide some base level of funding to ensure that this can be achieved.
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
15 December 2010
22:1484869This is not only do-able but preferable. The third sector generally provides better and more humane and personalised support than state support, but the funding streams are complex and shifting. We have a real opportunity to make a difference to the benefits system for good, not just for the sake of savings, but I sense we will lose the chance. The whole point of support is just that: to support, not "give", or control or dictate. That is why things like ILF matter - to enable people to have real and authentic control over their own lives with whatever realistic support is needed to make that happen.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
15 December 2010
22:2984870'Evil cuts' to put it politely, balderdash....
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
15 December 2010
22:3584872we always know when you have lost the argument barry!!
nice to know what you think of the incurably disabled.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
15 December 2010
22:4284874You have to face some economic reality in this cash strapped age Howard.
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,888
15 December 2010
22:5684878I believe most of us "face some economic reality" in our everyday lives without loosing our compassion for others who are less lucky than we are.
I must admit I sometimes wonder what the world would be like if we all followed your ethos Barry, in my opinion not very nice unless you are fit and in a well paid job.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
15 December 2010
23:0684881Jan - if you followed my ethos the GDP of the UK would be a lot higher than it is and a more compassion could be afforded without bankrupting the country.
That is the problem with Labour - they go off spending other people's money without regard to the economic consequences and it always ends in grief. I do not call uncontrolled and unsustainable spending kind, I call it a cruel deception.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
15 December 2010
23:3184888sounds like the nasty party are still alive and kicking.
i have an incredibly low income but would like to think i would still be able to help someone worse off.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
15 December 2010
23:4384891Nasty Howard - if you want to help people you have to have an healthy economy first, forget that and, as I said, it is a cruel deception.
If that is nasty then so be it.
Your attitude is an illustration of why our economy is up **** creek and the cuts are having to be made. Its the idiotic mistake that Labour make very time, driving the economy into the ground. You have to create wealth before you can spend it - basic logic and common sense.
Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,706
16 December 2010
00:0584893True Barry, but do you need to cut so deeply so quickly and over such a short period?
Are there alternatives?
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
16 December 2010
07:1484898Compassionate does not imply uncontrolled and unsustainable. It is that equation that reveals the real underpinning nature of Conservatism at its worst. The older I get the less allegiance I have to any group or "party", and there are many valuable things to learn from most of the political colours. But there are some things that don't change, and one of them is the fundamental belief that one group of people are "better" than another which lies at the heart of the ruthless and unpleasant part of the Conservatives and which when revealed appalls most "ordinary" folk such as us. It is thrown up for scrutiny when this kind of conversation happens and these kind of policies are examined.
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,888
16 December 2010
08:5584907-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
16 December 2010
09:0484908The answer is yes Ross. If you do not act quickly to deal with the deficit then the next recession will hit and we will be back to square one. Recessions/slowdowns are a part of the economic cycle and are inevitable, the economy must march in tune with that cycle and getting it back 'in tune' needs speedy action.
We have to remember that politicians have their own cycle too, an electoral cycle. Sadly public attitudes on this forum are demonstrating why they find it so difficult to run the economy properly and from that no politician of any party is immune.
Bern, Howard - you cannot help anyone if you beggar the nation.
The boss of Microsoft was in the news recently because he is giving at least half of his wealth to charity. If he was not such a ruthless, single minded and sharp businessman over the years he would not have that wealth to give away.
The creation of wealth must take priority. Take from it what is sustainable to help the less well off. The more you help that wealth creation the bigger the overall pot available to be dipped into sustainably.
The left go on and on about environmental sustainablility in this way but simply ignore it for the economy.
They tie the hand of businesses with red tape and require them to fulfill their social objectives, tax them more than they should, tax those who make those businesses successful more than they should, tax their customers more than they should and then are surprised when the wealth dries up. Daft plain daft.
Yes - I do place a priority on wealth creation and a healthy economy first and foremost - it has to be that way.
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
16 December 2010
09:0984910Well Barry,this time you have gone wayover the top even for you.Like some before me on this post I hope you never get what some have to live with,and if you do and that can happen as you get older,you will then find out how wrong you are.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
16 December 2010
09:1284912Vic - do visit the real world.
You cannot help anyone without the means to do so and the more dosh you have the more you can help. Do you really not understand what I am saying here? The same is true of governments as well as individuals - it is life.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
16 December 2010
09:5684914thats it barry you got it right,cut all benifits to tha old and disabled then invest all the money saved into somthing safe like iceland etc.sure to make money eventully.
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