Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
...should we send in a gunboat or get really serious.... Her Majesty the Queen?
An interesting article here that I just read that appeared in ConHome by cAndrew Rosindell who is the MP for Romford.
He talks a lot of sense and is spot on about Gibraltar. We certainly must support the people of Gib but what is the best way to do it?
A long article but a good read.....
"""""""""There was a time when nations imposed themselves on others. Rightly or wrongly, the world map we have today is largely a result of that era in our collective human history. That time has passed; we now live in a world defined by national and territorial borders on both land and sea, where people come together under a flag united through a common culture, heritage and identity.
Gibraltar has since 1704, with its status formalised in the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713, been under British sovereignty "to be held and enjoyed absolutely with all manner of right forever" and, whilst Britain no longer exercises direct power over the Rock, through self-determination the people of Gibraltar have chosen to remain British and since that time, have shown nothing but steadfast loyalty to the Crown. Gibraltarians are not Spanish, they have never been Spanish and do not want to be Spanish.
So why, then, does the Kingdom of Spain refuse to accept 300 years of history and seek to impost their rule over these people? Why, against every fact and against the reality of the world of 2013, does Madrid insist that Gibraltar should be Spanish? It is of course nothing but a completely ludicrous and baseless claim. However with the economy of Spain in freefall, unemployment levels at 40 per cent and widespread civil unrest, the Spanish government is doing exactly what every other hard-pressed regime does when its back is against the wall - direct all their citizens' anger towards foreigners.
It is indeed a miserable state of affairs, for Spain - a modern democracy - to pit her citizens against Gibraltarians to the detriment of both sides, all because things aren't well at home. Over recent months we have seen a substantial increase in Spanish attacks on British-Gibraltarian sovereignty; whether holding up the border (sometimes for up to seven hours), illegally encroaching into Gibraltarian territorial waters or threatening fisherman and civil vessels, things are getting worse. In one recent incident, a Guardia Civil vessel even fired shots at a Gibraltarian jet skier. The situation is reaching a head and Gibraltar should not be subjected to this kind of behaviour by a supposed democracy, let alone an EU and NATO member state.
We must question whether allowing Spain to join both organisations in the 1980s was the correct thing to do, before Britain received a complete and final acceptance by Spain that Gibraltar does not belong to them. What has become evident is that the Government can no longer rely on stern dialogue to keep Spain at bay and that if a more robust approach is not taken, then Spain will continue to escalate its aggression. We cannot allow this to happen. It's time to tell Spain that the United Kingdom will no longer tolerate their shameful bullying of Gibraltar. We must ensure that the Spanish government is held accountable for its malicious behaviour: it is completely and utterly unacceptable.
This is not a "dispute" between the United Kingdom and Spain, there is no valid argument to be had and there is certainly no debate - this is simply a case of a nation terrorising its neighbour, it is equivalent of a stalker harassing an innocent victim. Gibraltarians should not have to tolerate this abuse and neither should the British people. These attacks on Gibraltar are an attack on Britain, too, and we have a duty to stand by the people of the Rock at all costs.
I have often asked my colleagues in the House of Commons, would any of us discuss negotiating away the sovereignty of our constituents? Because any 'discussion' of sovereignty with Spain is exactly the same thing. For Spain to continually try to impose itself on its neighbour is not acceptable in 2013: that era in human history must surely be over, and with 99 per cent of Gibraltarians voting to remain British the message cannot be clearer.
So how long must we have to wait until the bullying of Gibraltar by Spain is brought to its long overdue conclusion? How many more decades of abuse does Gibraltar have to suffer before unequivocal action is taken? At the moment, the situation is untenable and perhaps the saddest thing is that the current position puts everyone at a disadvantage - tourists, tradesmen and businesses on both sides suffer. Gibraltar should have a thriving relationship with Spain, they should work together closely as neighbours on the Iberian Peninsula. This should not be happening in 2013.
And so, the time has come for Spain and it government to act like a twenty-first Century democracy and move on from this stupidity, end the nonsense and put this whole sorry episode behind them. If they refuse to do so, the Spanish Ambassador in London should be ordered to return home, the Royal Navy must be dispatched to the waters around Gibraltar to protect British interests and in every international forum and organisation, Britain must use its influence to challenge Spain. We must demonstrate by words and actions that Spain have lost Britain as a friend and if they want to change things, they have to change their own attitude towards Gibraltar.
And finally, the Prime Minister should make a decision to send the most powerful signal that can possibly be made and show the world that Britain will always stand shoulder to shoulder with Gibraltar. David Cameron should advise the Queen that after sixty years, now would be an appropriate time for her to visit the people who are unquestionably her most loyal subjects on the planet. The message from Britain will then be clear: Britain will defend Gibraltar now and forever!"""""""""""""""""""
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
the question is,is it still viable as a military base,or just an expensive folly.in todays age.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
spain has ceuta and melilla, both in morocco so not really in a position to criticise the u.k. over gibraltar.
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
"...the Spanish government is doing exactly what every other hard-pressed regime does when its back is against the wall - direct all their citizens' anger towards foreigners."
This article is not doing much the same thing?
And there is this...
"...In 1959, the Spanish territory on the Gulf of Guinea was established with a status similar to the provinces of metropolitan Spain. As the Spanish Equatorial Region, it was ruled by a governor general exercising military and civilian powers. The first local elections were held in 1959, and the first Equatoguinean representatives were seated in the Spanish parliament. Under the Basic Law of December 1963, limited autonomy was authorized under a joint legislative body for the territory's two provinces. The name of the country was changed to Equatorial Guinea.
In March 1968, under pressure from Equatoguinean nationalists and the United Nations, Spain announced that it would grant the country independence. In 1969, under international pressure, Spain returned Sidi Ifni to Morocco. Spanish control of Spanish Sahara endured until the 1975 Green March prompted a withdrawal, under Moroccan military pressure. The future of this former Spanish colony remains uncertain.
The Canary Islands and Spanish cities in the African mainland are considered an equal part of Spain and the European Union but have a different tax system without Value Added Tax.
Morocco still claims Ceuta, Melilla, and plazas de soberanía even though they are internationally recognized as administrative divisions of Spain (despite Plazas de Soberania which is a territory of Spain). Isla Perejil (Arabic: ‎Leila ("night")) was occupied on 11 July 2002 by Moroccan Gendarmerie and troops, who were evicted peacefully by Spanish naval forces."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Empire#Territories_in_Africa_.281885.E2.80.931975.29Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
Breaking news...
"David Cameron has telephoned Spanish prime minister Mariano Rajoy to protest about threats to impose border fees for crossing Gibraltar border. More details soon ..."
From the G.
Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Tom Austin wrote:"...the Spanish government is doing exactly what every other hard-pressed regime does when its back is against the wall - direct all their citizens' anger towards foreigners."
This article is not doing much the same thing?
No not in the slightest. This is a response to Spanish aggression and is a quite reasonable response.
Have you nothing to say about the right to self-determination as per the UN charter? That is what this is all about.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Brian Dixon wrote:the question is,is it still viable as a military base,or just an expensive folly.in todays age.
Not an expensive folly at all.
No longer a navy base.
As above it is about the Gibraltarian right of self-determination.
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
We seem only to hear about the UN and its charters and its many resolutions when they adversely effect the UK.
I'll have to pop off now and check on the outcome of Dave's decisive action...
Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
"...Some of the row has been stoked by the Spanish rightwing government's need to distract from corruption charges that have been levelled against its most senior figures.
Downing Street believes the Gibraltar dispute is not going to dissipate this month, and a direct complaint at prime ministerial level was appropriate.
The dispute, at root a centuries-old argument about sovereignty of the rock off Spain, has been sparked by the Gibraltar government dumping 70 concrete blocks in the bay, something that has angered Spanish fishermen.
Britain believes the potential move on border fees breaches bilateral agreements and may also fall outside EU rules. But proportionate fees may be possible since the UK is not part of the Schengen agreement."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/07/gibraltar-david-cameron-spanish-pm
"...rightwing government's need to distract from corruption charges..."
With so much in common...
Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Tom - what you are not of course saying is that the blocks of concrete are being placed inside Gibraltar's own waters as part of a conservation project and the complaints of the Spanish fishermen is because it is an area where they like to fish ILLEGALLY.... didums to them!
Lets hope that if they carry on with their illegal fishing that their fishing nets get snagged and boats sunk. Not that I want them hurt in any way, but if they act illegally they get whats coming to them.
Now - I could not be bothered with the Guardian report, did you decide to ignore this point or did the Guardian. As we know ignoring inconvenient facts is what you lefties are all about.
As for your final aside - explain what you mean.
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
Keeping tainted money from corrupt Polly Peck tycoon shames the Tories, says ex-Treasurer
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2192838/Keeping-tainted-money-corrupt-Polly-Peck-tycoon-Asil-Nadir-shames-Tories-says-ex-Treasurer.html
Tory Peter Cruddas quits after donor access claims
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17503116
Labour steps up pressure on Tories in Sheffield Forgemasters sleaze row
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/jul/22/labour-tories-sheffield-forgemasters-sleaze-row
George Osborne could have breached donations law by 'discussing' donations
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/georgeosborne/3242701/George-Osborne-could-have-breached-donations-law-by-discussing-donations.html
"
Blair blasted over Tanzania deal
Dar airport
Tanzania's main airport benefited from the deal
The UK sold a "useless" air traffic control system to Tanzania in 2001 in a "scandalous" and "squalid" deal, the House of Commons has been told.
Ex-International Development Secretary Clare Short joined the Tories in accusing Tony Blair of pushing through the £28m sale by BAE Systems..."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6315799.stm Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
Guest 745- Registered: 27 Mar 2012
- Posts: 3,370
Lob a couple of hundred shells in to benidorm, that should sort it all out
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
Well, the suits are there ready for them Keith.
Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
Suddenly Flashman finds out he needs the EU......ukippers and right wingers note..................
Courtesy Independent.....rvhised....
Gibraltar tensions: UK threatens legal action over border checks and Navy sets sail for Med
Downing Street said it was considering the 'unprecedented step' against Spain
Britain has threatened Spain with legal action over the "politically motivated" imposition of
extra checks on the frontier with Gibraltar.
Diplomatic tensions between the two countries continued to grow after Downing Street disclosed
it was considering taking the "unprecedented step" on the grounds that the Spanish action
**** breached European Union law.*****
Ministers were discussing whether to pursue the issue as a "matter of urgency" with the EU, the spokesman added.
Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
Flashman keen to call up for assistance from EU again.........
David Cameron asks EU president Jose Manuel Barroso to urgently send monitors to Gibraltar border
Prime Minister says Spain's border checks are 'politically motivated and disproportionate
David Cameron has accused Spain of imposing "politically motivated and disproportionate" border
checks on people entering and leaving Gibraltar - as he called for the EU to intervene in the dispute.
In a significant escalation in the diplomatic row between Britain and Spain, Mr Cameron telephoned
the European Commission President, Jose Manuel Barroso, to raise "serious concerns" over the
checks, which he claimed broke EU rules on freedom of movement.
The Prime Minister said the United Kingdom was now considering legal action against Spain, and
revealed that the Government was "collating evidence" of the "sporadic nature" of the Spanish checks
to "prove that they are illegitimate".
Last week Mr Cameron had appeared keen to defuse the row following a telephone call with his
Spanish counterpart Mariano Rajoy. But with long border queues continuing and Spain claiming
that Gibraltar has not controlled smuggling Downing Street said that Mr Cameron had decided to
officially call for EU intervention
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
LOL Reg - you are desperately trying to find ways to support our membership of that fascist organisation you support - the EU.
While a member we should take advantage of whatever we can in this issue but it is not a reason that outweighs the massive negatives of membership.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
another red herring from barry,i am sure you can find a narrowboat for your narrow mind up north.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Brian - if the EU says jump you will just ask, how high?
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
no,i would tell them to sod off,putting it polightly.but saying the rest of the uk might as they are now frightend of there own shadow.
Guest 944- Registered: 16 May 2013
- Posts: 57
A part of me just wishes Cameron would pick up the phone to the Spanish PM and say "come and have a go if you think you're hard enough".
He could phone up the Argie president whilst he's at it and say the same thing.
Both are opportunists and are clearly playing the anti-colonialism thing to distract from their own internal problems.
Andrew Richardson