howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
usually difficult choices in politics hit the most vulnerable.
politicians use it when they are hurting people but not hurting themselves.
i had a teacher at school that was rather proficient with administering corporal punishment.
his phrase each time was "this will hurt me much more than it will hurt you".
i can assure everyone that the statement was incorrect.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
I bet you deserved it howard
You cannot get away from the economic realities of life. If the finances were better managed since 1997 we would now not be in so serious a situation, difficult still yes, some cut backs needed, yes, but not nearly as bad as they are now. You are right of course that those who are the main victims every time Labour screw up the economy, are the most vulnerable but every Labour Government has ended the same way.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
what ever barry.
Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
BarryW.
I joined this Forum to network for moving the Miners Statue and because I thought I would learn a thing or two about local life & politics.
To learn anything you have to listen to all sides and then make a judgment, all I have learnt from you is, basically, if a Labour person say's something, its either been stolen from you or is wrong.
I.e. if Bungling Boris was Labour, you would be slaying him in this post, not praising him.
For this Country to succeed there has to be a balance of Labour, Liberals & Conservatives, all working together for all the people of this Country.
Individually they all have their faults, but if they stopped their playground spitting of dummies at each other, and worked on the problems together, they might just get the job done that they were elected for.
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Gary - politics is about different views on how we should be governed. With the Labour Government in deep trouble all we see from Labour supporters are posts that try to turn the fire on the messenger rather than develop a proper defence of what is being critisised.
It is a fact that every single Labour Government has ended in economic tears, I note that no-one has actually tried to challenge that point. I will not go into detail as to why that is but it does result directly from the Labour vision of how we should be governed with which I disagree. If Boris was Labour and governing London from that angle and their idea of governance then he would, I expect, be doing so in a manner with which I would disagree and his actions in his mayoralty as such would have been different.
If we are going to debate politics then let us do so properly by discussing the political issues, one of which is Brown himself, directly because he has been in charge personally of our economy for so long that he carries a considerable amount of the responsibility for the state it is in. Note that I say a considerable amount, I am not placing all of our woes on him, because there are of course international and cyclical isssues. I am careful to draw the line between what he has directly done and the impact of those actions on our situation.
And every Tory government has eroded the civil rights and economic safety of the underclasses, even to the point of sending them to war.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Bern - really, old fashion class war nonsense.
BArryW, check out your history, but please do it with an open heart and mind. Class wars come in different guises and with different names, but it amounts to the same thing: the powerful crushing the vulnerable. That was the origin of the Union movement, and however corrupt it became - and I will not wear rose-tinted specs about it - the basis was sound and can be resumed.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Try checking out your history Bern. If you look many of the great reform acts of the 19th Century were Tory and that demonstrates the absurdity of your post no 26.
Guest 660- Registered: 14 Mar 2008
- Posts: 3,205
Have a happy Easter Barry,take the day off,don't hit the Tories at home website
If you knew what I know,we would both be in trouble!
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Thanks JHG, I had a noce break while watching 'smeargate' unfold.
Some of you got a bit precious and prissy about me calling Brown a liar and cheat, among other things. At least that was based on the evidence that I have seen. Now we have a whole raft of new evidence about the man's character.
What Brown's closest adviser has done in making up lies to destabilise the opposition simply says it all about him and his Government. Labour apologists will try to deflect this by saying it was not him and that he disapproved. Utter rubbish. The man guilty of this was his closest adviser and has been from the start in the Treasury. The claims that these were private emails that were never meant to be used was soon blown apart when we find that they had already tried to diseminate this filth through the mainstream media but failed because the newspapers did their checks. Hence their deciding to use a website instead.
Labour apologists will also try to deflect blame by claiming all governments did it. More rubbish. Before Blair there was a strict division between what Civil Servants could and could not do. They had to stay away from anything remotely Party political. Blair changed that, once no10 just had a press secretary who stayed away from Party political issues, Blaire brought in teams of 'special advisers' paid for out of the public purse and this culture of spin and lies became rooted at the heart of Government.
It was these special adviser that led to the 'dodgy dossier', the death of Kelly and the character assination of many people who stood in the way of 'New Labour'. Labour figures even turned it against each other, Blair's advisers briefing against Brown, Brown's against Blair, just lately Brown's against Brown's!
I say it again, Brown is a liar, a cheat, totally unprincipalled and utterly incompetent. The evidence of this is before your eyes every day.
I have said before that there are other saying much harsher and ruder things about Brown. They are, things I would not dream of saying on this forum or even privately.
Take a look at what a former British Ambassador is saying
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2009/04/gordon_brown_wh.htmlBrian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
am i botherd no.
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
Its true BarryW you have pre-empted some of my responses there. But still I 'll soldier on. The fact is ... although this guy was a close adviser to Gordon Brown, very unfortunately so, you cannot be hung for another persons crime. If this guy is concocting up weird schemes, and he is a spin doctor after all, thats what they do, there is however no real suggestion anywhere that Gordon Brown was involved or had any knowledge of it. I think we can accept that by the way the guy was shown the door in double quick fashion. Its a large leap of faith to say therefore Gordon Brown is a liar and a cheat and possibly worse. I know you said it before but this latest episode doesnt make it conclusive one way or the other.
As I said before I dont think the British Public view him that way even though the tide may be shifting against him.
It was also mentioned on the Radio4 this morning that David Cameron's spin doctor is a former editor of the News of the World. Now tell me they're not muck rakers of the first order!!?....Cameron employed him not for his piety Im sure.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
PaulB - none of what you says washes at all, certainly none of the media are naive enough to think Brown is not responsible. Brown set the tone for his Government and as PM the buck stops with him. Mcbride was his right hand man, his trusted ally and his political strategist (paid for by us taxpayers not the Labour Party). This man has a track record of this, hence his nickname of McPoison, a nickname coined by Labour people. McBride did this at no10, on a salary paid by taxpayers, on Government computers, a man who has been at Brown's right hand for many years who he transferred across from the Treasury. A known quantity by Brown, trusted by him and a man on whom he has relied before to do his dirty work. At the very least Brown's judgement is seriously at fault but no-one really believes in Westminster that Brown knows nothing about what McBride was up to.
Even long standing Labour supporting journalists and Labour MPs pin the blame on Brown for this state of affairs.
I have to laugh at Brown's letters to those who were targetted. He mentions regret, not any regret at the lies devised by McBride, but regret at the damage caused to politics, not a word of sorry. If I had a close and trusted employee who had to resign or be sacked by actions such as this then I would be responsible and as such would issue an apology. Brown though does not do sorry.
Compare Browns claim of not being responsible for this to how employers get treated over employees who exhibit unaccepatble behaviour. How employers get sued over a male employee who sexually harrasses a female employee for instance. They, the employer, gets held responsible for the actions of his employee in case after case.
We hear this from Brown all the time dont we, there is a pattern here. I was not responsible will be written on his tombstone. To hear him, he is not responsible for anything, except abolishing boom and bust of course!!! The man is a pathetic fool.
As for Cameron's spin doctor, indeed he did work for the NoTW but it is what he does in DC's name while working for him that is important here.
Sid Pollitt
I think the incident with McBribe is regretable but I dont think Brown should apologise for something that someone has done. It reminds me of when I was younger and my old boss would blame me for things that went wrong in front of clients when it was his fault! He thought he could because Thatcher was in No10 and there were 3 million unemployed.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
You are getting desperate to find ways to blame Mrs T. Sid.
No good manager or employer would blame staff in front of clients whether the staff were at fault or not, such things should always be left in private, it reflects badly on that manager to do so.
I assume that if you were a judge at the Nazi war crime trials at Neuremberg then Sid, you would have accepted pleas from Goering that he did not know what was going on in the camps. Oh, I thought not. An extreme example but it makes the point well.
Ultimately the buck stops with those in charge, except in Browns case, he thinks he is not responsible for anything that his Government does wrong.
Given that McBride was as close to Brown as he was we should not accept Brown's excuses either.
Sid Pollitt
It wasnt Thatcher's fault and there is no direct comparion to what's gone on, it just reminded me of blame in a work situation. You'd have thought that the episode might have made you be less provacative yourself BarryW, not the first time you're compared me with a fascist. A thought for McBride and you; those that live by the sword, die by the sword. Maybe you should have taken the advise and chillaxed over the weekend and taken a chill pill.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
qoute,the pen is mighter than the sword.barryw please take note of the qoute.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
you must have been bottling that up all over easter barry.
did you spend the holiday in mr sarkozy's country?
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
That, Sid, just shows how you do not really read what is said and merely leap to what you think was said. I was actually placing you in the position of one of the judges at the nazi war crime trial, not a defendant. Do keep up.
No howard - will be tootling off down there for a lads 'mid-week' in May though!!
I have just been enjoying yet another of Labour's death throes while eating choccy, watching a few movies and sinking a few pints...
Brian - you would need to re-write that to represent the email..... You are correct though - the media narrative has now swung so far against Brown his position is irrecoverable with even previously Brownite writers like Jackie Ashley in the Guardian turning against him.