DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
12 February 2011
09:4092371They can have my DNA and can rummage through my bins. My chromosomes have nothing to hide!
"I am a Conservative Party" quite possibly the most profound explanation of the Conservative party I have ever read!
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
12 February 2011
09:4892372Thanks for spotting the mis-type DT, I think you know the word I missed out....
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
12 February 2011
10:0892374Barry, I'm not knocking you. I like the fact we battle these things out. You are clear and passionate about your views...I like this even though I disagree. I just think that unintentional mistake was quite an amusing summary of the individualism promoted by the Conservative party.
My problem is that 'government' is the result of society, therefore 'Big Society, small government' is a joke.
Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
12 February 2011
11:1292385In every walk of life, in every aspect of life, there is good & bad, healthy & cancerous.
Cries of cuts, being too much, too quick, are coming from all sources, including some from their own tory party, including rank and file.
After speaking to a few Tories this week, they have proved to me, that they are not happy and feel damage is being done to their party.
Is their policies now changing to, grab what you can, while it lasts?
I think there is an greedy, cancerous minority, disguising themselves as Tories, using the party for their own ends, bankers, industry as well as individuals.
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
12 February 2011
11:5992389The whole point of the Big Society is that society can get things done without Government. You are right, Darren, that government is the result of society; it is society which created government in the first place, and society which chooses its leaders. It therefore follows that government exists only by consent of society, and that its size and scope can be altered by society. If government is reduced in size and scope, with society able to operate aspects of the nation's daily life without government involvement, that is what I understand 'small government, big society' to mean.
Power to the People, in other words.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
12 February 2011
16:5292401the problem is that many require assistance from government, some people are better at getting their way due to a better educaton.
we will see this in action with the new "free" schools, the better off will know how to get the benefits for their area, whilst
the poorer areas will be left with failing schools.
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
12 February 2011
16:5392402Power to do what?
A friend of mine (a conservative party supporter) recently wrote to Mr Elphicke explaining the flaw in the 'big society'. His point being that although the idea of power to the people is one that we would all agree with, there is actually no mechanism for providing this. I would add that what we will see is the power actually being handed to county/district councils, removing responsibility from central government, and this power being abused, eg closing all the toilets in a city. Councils are statutory bodies that are not run by 'the people' and do not necessarily always work in the interest of 'the people'. Councils prioritise and things that don't make money go first, regardless of what people want or expect. We can see this first hand with the Port, another statutory body.
Power to the people would be the ability to stop the sale of OUR port or forests, not the opportunity to buy them. This is power to those who can afford it, which is really what this localism will create. 'Planning' in towns is a clear example of this. poorer areas will be more subservient and dependent on private corporations than richer areas. Look at how regeneration is achieved in poorer areas, look how much we needed Asda, this will only get worse. In reality democracy and choice will be reduced in areas that cannot afford it.
Let me be very clear, I think Mr Elphicke is doing some really good work for our area and I agree with so much. As I say, my problem is with 'big society' being contradictory to devolution, making smaller pockets of society. Society is about the shared views and standards of individuals, if these are localised then this is small, not big, big would be national. What Mr Cameron is actually promoting is individualism, I wish he would just say it! Power is finite and it is not being given to us, just shifted around to negate responsibility.
Unregistered User
12 February 2011
18:0592404Some good points DT1.
Watty
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
12 February 2011
18:5492410You are right Darren in many respects. The power is only there for the people to grab if they stand up and grab it. If we sit back and let councils grab it we shall be no better off. Big society is thousands of local initiatives encompassing millions of individuals, all working for different ends. It is not millions of drones all striving for the same ends- that is collectivism.
If the government want to sell assets against the will of the people, there is little we can do to stop them except to set up peoples' organisations to buy those assets. Sound familiar?
For the record my jury is still out on free schools! And in my view British 'society' is not singular in concept but a concept made up of fifty-eight million dots, all of whom are different, have free will, and above all, now have the freedom to associate with like-minded dots to club together and change things. Localism Act or no Localism Act, nobody is going to knock at your door and suggest you can make a better fist of running Dover Castle than English Heritage- it is up to the individual to get off his arse and initiate change.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
12 February 2011
21:2992442all this talk of the "big society" reminds me that dave is addressing the "big society network" on monday to stress that the idea is not something to be scoffed at but relevant to his master plan.
the "big society bank" has an initial budget of £.200,000,000.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
12 February 2011
22:5592457For those who have lived most of their adult life under a Labour government, the essence of Big Society is hard to grasp. I must admit I struggled with it until I had a talk last year with Phillip Blond, who is really the intellectual architect of the whole concept. It's a different model of grass-roots democracy, that's all. Wake up and smell the coffee!
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 705- Registered: 23 Sep 2010
- Posts: 661
13 February 2011
00:3192458I agree Peter, the country is in such a state that something radical has to occur to defuse the deficit, give hope to the people and avoid the spectre of anarchy. 'Big Society' is nothing new to all those volunteers who for the last 50years have been gathering in number and pace as leisure time increases and movements encompassing heritage,countryside,wildlife,the environment and philanthropy have expanded beyond the wildest dreams of their original activists. Here is a chance for them to take the lead and illuminate the way for the uninitiated and gain even grander recognition for their efforts. My team and I will be amongst the first on the steps of the Big Society Bank. I guess there will be some jostling but that's democracy. Big Society is seen as a con by many but they will be the ones who won't grasp it and make it work. They will be left behind. I believe that even the PM himself doesn't realise the potential power of what he is initiating.
Never give up...
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
13 February 2011
00:5092459Yo Richard, you are talking my language. We need to de-couple this thinking from party politics. It is nothing to do with that. It is party politics which will keep the Big Society earthbound- there are millions of people of other allegiances who would instinctively support its concept if it were not for tribal/historical roots.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 705- Registered: 23 Sep 2010
- Posts: 661
13 February 2011
01:2192461We live in exciting times.
Never give up...
Guest 700- Registered: 11 Jun 2010
- Posts: 2,868
13 February 2011
10:1392466Wells said, Richard. Big Society CAN be very effective. Philanthropic enterprises have always done well for communities in the past and hopefully will continue to do so.
It always still has great potential - and can move mountains !
---------------------------------------------------
Lincolnshire Born and Bred
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
13 February 2011
11:0192474the main two problems with the concept are:
a) most people who do voluntary work are retired, the retirement age is going up all the time.
b) funding to charities is being drastically cut.
i am still of the opinion that the better educated and articulate will be better placed to get any grants that are available.
13 February 2011
11:2292476And that is why they are employed by the charities to do just that. Third sector organisations are just waking up to the 20th century and that they have to become more savvy to function. Not a bad thing. It should help to drive up standards and performance which is good for the punters. The main challenge with the big society concept is that it does not appear to be as well thought through as it could be (it's government, what do we expect?!). The funding has to be exceptionally well planned and needs to continue to stream through the State until the rest of the organisations are functioning well enough to manage, and that bit is, or appears to be, missing.
Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
13 February 2011
11:4692479I have been involved with Fowlmead for the last 5 years and like many others can see the potential for enhancing the park. Myself and other's were approached with the idea of putting a bid in for running Fowlmead, Power to the People, Big Society stuff.
We have got nowhere, the only serious negotiations that have taken place is between DDC and Hadlow College. We are very disappointed that our formular was not given the same interest as afforded to Hadlow.
Our proposals have been dismissed in favour of Hadlow College. I was informed a short while ago that the deal is nearly done, funds from coalfield regeneration had been secured.
So forgive me if I seem apathetic to all this People Power stuff, as it seems that Fowlmead, built on our Betteshanger Colliery tip, using coalfield regeneration money, is looking like being taken over by an outside college also funded by coalfield regeneration money.
I have added some parts of our plans below.
PROPOSALS FOR THE FORMATION: (REVISED September2010)
A TRUST MANAGEMENT -CHARITY BASED SOLUTION FOR FOWLMEAD / BETTESHANGER.
There is an obvious lack of enterprise being developed at Fowlmead / Betteshanger and with the potential loss of SEEDA, Political entities are already vying to take over control of the pie. Should this happen Both FOWLMEAD and Betteshanger Park will suffer as will the Local populations spanning the Mining Towns and Villages of South East Kent. It has happened over many years whereby allocated funds have gone to centralised projects many of which have failed and wasted millions which could have benefitted ALL.
Therefore the Original provisions for Fowlmead / Betteshanger should be enhanced and grown for self sustaining status over the next 3/5 years. They should retain the LEISURE and Themed enterprise format whilst generating self sustaining attraction values. They must also develop local Business and Craft enterprise with potential for Manufacturing and Service enterprises, many of which have been lost to the region over recent years.
For me the only TRUE solution is for us the People to develop a management TRUST based on a Charity status that will and can develop the Facilities and provide for all members, be the 8 or 80 years. There should be no Discrimination or Border conflicts and all procedures should be constitutionally formatted under statute laws.
We must accept that the Trust status has benefitted the Port of Dover for some 400 years and can continue to do Provided that some basic strategies are followed which can maintain the Trust formula and enhance local benefits.
THE MISSION - FOWLMEAD / BETTESHANGER
Our Mission should be to; Develop a Management TRUST directed at Charity status so that ALL Benefits are for the Future of our Communities. Such should ensure Free Enterprise and growth of the facilities so as to provide greater Education and Values whilst producing Jobs and Benefits for ALL AGES.
This must be based on Private sector Management formulas with no political associations and directed at supporting UK benefitting charities and local events.
The goals being to produce Community Facilities for all not least to encompass Historical links via a Museum and Virtual Education Centre. It is also proposed that the Country Park name be changed to incorporate local values and links. Its present name fails to prove attractive and reduces promotional and Tourism potentials. These associated with the Cottage Industrial format will ensure growth, jobs and a sustainable future on these sites, without impeding the natural presentation or potential.
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
13 February 2011
12:1392480Many suggestions have come forward to me, from people within our community who want to see Fowlmead used for enhancing community life and for tourism.
Astronomers (there's no light pollution there), Cross country races, Gymkhanas, Drive in movies (Summer Time), Archery.
Green Burial Site ( such as the one in Epping Forest), please see
http://www.woodlandburialparks.co.uk/
Marriages, Concert Parties and other events, where having no neighbors may be an advantage.
We are in negotiation's to take Cruise Passengers to the Park and then onto other places of interest in our Mining Villages, also in negotiations with having national organized walks, at least twice a year, on The Miners Way Trail. These all have a big potential for bringing 1000's of visitors to our corner of Kent.
The Virtual Mining Museum would give 1000's of visitors the chance to experience the life and survival of the miner, from stepping onto the cage, travelling to the coalface and winning coal. Something many people have wanted to experience but never got the chance.
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
13 February 2011
12:5592488interesting stuff, what did hadlow college offer that was so much better?
i think the idea of a virtual mining museum would be of interest to overseas visitors.