howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#1
Hope that our MP's have read this.
Göring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.
Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.
Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.
In an interview with Gilbert in Göring's jail cell during the Nuremberg War Crimes Trials (18 April 1946)
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#2
Been following events today loosely and am surprised by how many people are refusing to do what their party leaders have told them to do and are voting with their consciences. Certainly not a party issue although Charlie running around like a headless chicken trying to put the frighteners on wayward MP's, unfortunately for him many are the longest serving ones, highly respected and will tell him where to go.
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,931
#3
Cameron calling those not in favour ""terrorist sympathisers" was not a sensible remark.
I have my doubts about the proposed bombing but no way that does not make me or other doubters "terrorist sympathisers". .
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Guest 943- Registered: 15 May 2013
- Posts: 449
#4
I agree with Jan.I thought Cameron was stupid and arrogant with that comment.
I have my doubts that 8 RAF planes will have much effect. That is all we have flying in Iraq/Syria. I pray they keep safe.
France has a aircraft carrier with over 20 planes bombing and the Russians also USA with many more planes.
I saw George Galloway on TV. All though I don't have much time for him.I thought he spoke a lot of sense.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#5
Since he got a majority in May we have seen the true Cameron, just an overgrown bully boy born into privilege. There has been some nasty stuff from him in the commons and today he has decreed that around half of the people in this country are terrorist sympathisers because they are concerned that innocent people will be more the victims than the terrorist targets.
Recent history shows that ordinary people in Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan have lost out the most when our politicians have ordered bombings.
Sue Nicholas- Location: river
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 6,025
#6
I also thought David Cameron did not show himself in a very good light .Only two words were required "Im sorry" Charlie did not look good either sniggering on the front benches. Many people will die,.No wonder peace never lasts when those in power act like school children.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
#7
Cameron did not call those voting against the motion 'terrorist sympathisers'. His words were twisted by the meeja. He actually said they would be voting the same way as terrorist sympathisers would, which is not the same thing at all. Bear in mind that Corbyn described IRA murderers who killed on our streets as 'freedom fighters' and Ken Livingstone said the 7/7 bombers 'gave their lives for what they believed in', whereas they actually took dozens of innocent lives, as well as their own, for what they believed in. So the label 'terrorist sympathisers', while appearing rather pejorative, actually looks reasonable and somewhat evidence-based when applied to those two individuals.
I don't think Cameron needs to apologise at this stage. But in 10 years time, after 'Chilcot II', he may have to.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,931
#8
Peter, I have little interest in what Corbyn said in the past or what he says now as I doubt he will be Labour Leader for very long but I do mind what Cameron says now and his words were insulting to all of us who have doubts about the bombing.
........Last night Mr Cameron addressed Tory MPs at a meeting of the 1922 committee.
He said: "You don't want to walk through the lobbies with Jeremy Corbyn and a bunch of terrorist sympathisers.".......
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/12028017/David-Cameron-tells-Tory-MPs-Ignore-the-terrorist-sympathisers-and-vote-for-Syrian-bombing.html -----------------------------------------------------------------------
I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
#9
As I said, evidence-based.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#10
I can understand people thinking that air strikes will hurt the terrorists but to hear our MP's cheering like they were at a football ground knowing that innocent people will die is unforgivable.
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
#11
I thought Hilary benns speech was inspirering,all most churchielian.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#12
I didn't see the speech Brian by all accounts it was top drawer and won't have done his leadership ambitions any harm. He has always had gravitas and is more credible as party leader than most that put their name down last time.
Guest 943- Registered: 15 May 2013
- Posts: 449
#13
I saw the speech.I would recommend everyone to see it.Its on the internet..Brilliant speech,spine tingling and unlike Camerons' comments Dignified.A Tory commentator Iain Dale said that some of the words spoken by Hilary Benn were possibly not be approved by his late FatherTony Benn but he was sure tears of pride were being shed in heaven.
When Hilary Benn was speaking it was complete silence in the house of commons.At the end of the speech, the silence continued for a few seconds.Then clapping started which got louder.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
#14
for those who didn't see Hilary benns speech,here it is in full.
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,931
#15
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Paul Watkins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 9 Nov 2011
- Posts: 2,226
#16
Politics aside, he is a thoroughly nice man.
Guest 943- Registered: 15 May 2013
- Posts: 449
#17
Paul ,are you referring to Hilary Benn or Charlie Elphicke?
Paul Watkins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 9 Nov 2011
- Posts: 2,226
#18
Little "tongue in cheek " Peter!
Plainly it was Hilary Benn I was referring to.
Guest 745- Registered: 27 Mar 2012
- Posts: 3,370
#19
Bombs at £800'000 a pop just think about all the council housing this would build.
And if all our jets are flying over the Arabs what's flying over the uk
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
#20
That is all being taken care of and not all our jets are over there.War is not nice ,if only we could get on with each other that would be the road go along .There is one way it could happen 99%of the world love music.
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