SWWood- Location: Dover
- Registered: 30 May 2012
- Posts: 256
howard mcsweeney1 wrote:I must admit that I was one of the first to condemn Russia over the nerve gas attack but Jezza showed his statesperson qualities by waiting for proof.
Neither Jezza or myself have witnessed the happening in Syria so will patiently wait for evidence to emerge.
I doubt the evidence will emerge. Russia will see to that. Having said that, I can't really see why Corbyn deserves much flak in this case, although I couldn't say the same about Ed Miliband. What we see now is the consequences of not standing up to the use of chemical weapons 5 years ago. The 2013 House of Commons vote on Syria was a shameful event in this country's recent history.
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howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
Could be interesting to see what the FBI dig up here.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43706709Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
you have to larf, I bet trump the dump locked himself in the loo and refusing to come out.
Weird Granny Slater- Location: Dover
- Registered: 7 Jun 2017
- Posts: 2,840
SWWood wrote:I doubt the evidence will emerge. Russia will see to that. Having said that, I can't really see why Corbyn deserves much flak in this case, although I couldn't say the same about Ed Miliband. What we see now is the consequences of not standing up to the use of chemical weapons 5 years ago. The 2013 House of Commons vote on Syria was a shameful event in this country's recent history.
Obviously Western public opinion in 2013 (overwhelmingly
against military intervention) was deeply unsatisfactory to the hawks and their ambitions in the Middle East. Solution: leave it a few years, all the while keeping the civil war ticking over nicely (and the arms manufacturers happy) by arming and supporting Syrian opposition forces. Use the time to refine the consent-manufacturing process to maximise the likelihood of getting the populations on-side (in the UK the EU referendum didn't go as planned, but a little event in Salisbury might help)... and Don's your uncle.
Guest 1881 likes this
'Pass the cow dung, my dropsy's killing me' - Heraclitus
Captain Haddock- Location: Marlinspike Hall
- Registered: 8 Oct 2012
- Posts: 7,470
Cause
AFP news agency
Verified account @AFP
12m12 minutes ago
#BREAKING Russia vetoes UN bid to set up Syria chemical weapons inquiry
and Effect?
Here come the NOTAMs!
http://www.airlive.net/alert-notification-from-eurocontrol-for-eastern-mediterranean-area-due-to-possible-launch-of-airstrikes-within-the-next-72-hours/'If no one went no faster than what I do there'd be a sight less trouble in this world'
SWWood- Location: Dover
- Registered: 30 May 2012
- Posts: 256
Weird Granny Slater wrote:Obviously Western public opinion in 2013 (overwhelmingly against military intervention) was deeply unsatisfactory to the hawks and their ambitions in the Middle East. Solution: leave it a few years, all the while keeping the civil war ticking over nicely (and the arms manufacturers happy) by arming and supporting Syrian opposition forces. Use the time to refine the consent-manufacturing process to maximise the likelihood of getting the populations on-side (in the UK the EU referendum didn't go as planned, but a little event in Salisbury might help)... and Don's your uncle.
This has nothing to do with anyone's ambitions in the Middle East. Chemical weapons were used against civilians, children included. We were supposed to have learned our lessons with regards to allowing such atrocities to go unchecked. Sadly some people then, as now, are more interested in playing political games, whilst burying there head in the sand when it comes to the seriousness of these actions. These problems don't go away if you ignore them. In this case, they simply become much more difficult to solve, an outcome that was entirely foreseeable even at the time. So whilst it might be convenient for some to insist that this is simply the result of some kind of warmongering by Western politicians, we shouldn't forget the facts: chemical weapons were used against civilians, the UK Parliament refused to condemn it, and too many people simply chose to turn their backs. Sometimes difficult decisions have to be made. Some people simply refuse to acknowledge this.
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Captain Haddock- Location: Marlinspike Hall
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- Posts: 7,470
ALERT According to reports, British forces are mobilizing at their bases in Cyprus and Rafale fighter jets could takeoff from St Dizier airbase in France for possible strikes against Syria
'If no one went no faster than what I do there'd be a sight less trouble in this world'
Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,680
Of course we should condemn any and all use of chemical weapons; but this sabre rattling from The Don & Macron isn't helpful they should be seeking to get the Russians on-side to facilitate a proper investigation by the OPCW; who after all are the globally recognised body for doing this.
But hey its so much easier to posture when the lives you threaten are not your own citizens (for now)
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"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
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While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Captain Haddock- Location: Marlinspike Hall
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'If no one went no faster than what I do there'd be a sight less trouble in this world'
Weird Granny Slater- Location: Dover
- Registered: 7 Jun 2017
- Posts: 2,840
SWWood wrote:Sometimes difficult decisions have to be made.
So how many dead Syrians would satisfy you?
And while we're on the subject of the absence of Western ambitions in the Middle East, perhaps you could also say why the Syrian government would use chemical weapons on its citizens when it has as good as won the civil war?
'Pass the cow dung, my dropsy's killing me' - Heraclitus
SWWood- Location: Dover
- Registered: 30 May 2012
- Posts: 256
Weird Granny Slater wrote:So how many dead Syrians would satisfy you?
And while we're on the subject of the absence of Western ambitions in the Middle East, perhaps you could also say why the Syrian government would use chemical weapons on its citizens when it has as good as won the civil war?
Oh dear, you really don't get it at all do you? I don't care
who uses chemical weapons, (and certainly didn't accuse one side or the other). I hate the idea that chemical weapon use is growing in the 21st century, to a level not seen since WW1. I hate the idea that we saw the dangers of these weapons, outlawed them, and then shrug our shoulders when they are deployed. And I hate the idea that chemical weapons will become the go-to weapon of choice for any embattled dictator and rogue state in the future, because it is the civilians who pay the price, Syrian or otherwise. We should have stood up against this in 2013, but with Russia now embedded in Syria, that has become a lot more difficult, and dangerous. The chickens are well and truly coming home to roost.
So, how many more victims of chemical warfare will there have to be before it sinks in that ignoring this problem isn't making it go away? How many more attacks will there have to be before we decide we have a problem.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
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- Posts: 62,352
Captain Haddock- Location: Marlinspike Hall
- Registered: 8 Oct 2012
- Posts: 7,470
Trump on Twitter a few minutes ago.
Russia vows to shoot down any and all missiles fired at Syria. Get ready Russia, because they will be coming, nice and new and “smart!” You shouldn’t be partners with a Gas Killing Animal who kills his people and enjoys it!
'If no one went no faster than what I do there'd be a sight less trouble in this world'
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,655
Tit for tat killing will do no good at all only escalate things yet again in that area and make us more vulnerable to terrorist attacks.
I am still against us getting involved, for once let the rest of the world back America why should it always be us.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Guest 1881- Registered: 16 Oct 2016
- Posts: 1,071
An eye for an eye will make the whole world go blind. - Mohandas Gandhi.
Just because you don't take an interest in politics doesn't mean that politics won't take an interest in you. PERICLES.
Weird Granny Slater- Location: Dover
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SWWood wrote:Oh dear, you really don't get it at all do you? I don't care who uses chemical weapons
Nice try, but use a better quality 'how to patronise successfully' manual next time.
But, to follow your logic:
Say it turns out the chemical attack was an Israeli false flag. (Remember Israel is an OPCW non-ratifier.) We're to go in all guns blazing?
Or, say it turns out the attack was a Saudi false flag. (They are, with our help, arming the jihadist opposition.) The same?
Out of the restricted Tonka thinking we're in the grip of at the moment you can expect one thing: bangs, flashes and dead bodies, but no solutions. And certainly the UK is in no position to take any moral high ground given its long history of exporting violence. (Heavens, our Foreign Secretary cannot even admit to a lie.). Our destiny is to be Uncle Sam's fart-catchers.
'Pass the cow dung, my dropsy's killing me' - Heraclitus
SWWood- Location: Dover
- Registered: 30 May 2012
- Posts: 256
Weird Granny Slater wrote:Nice try, but use a better quality 'how to patronise successfully' manual next time.
But, to follow your logic:
Say it turns out the chemical attack was an Israeli false flag. (Remember Israel is an OPCW non-ratifier.) We're to go in all guns blazing?
Or, say it turns out the attack was a Saudi false flag. (They are, with our help, arming the jihadist opposition.) The same?
Out of the restricted Tonka thinking we're in the grip of at the moment you can expect one thing: bangs, flashes and dead bodies, but no solutions. And certainly the UK is in no position to take any moral high ground given its long history of exporting violence. (Heavens, our Foreign Secretary cannot even admit to a lie.). Our destiny is to be Uncle Sam's fart-catchers.
I'll try again.
Our failure, and that of our allies, to intervene in 2013 (either diplomatically or militarily), has directly led to a much more dangerous situation today, and has solved none of the original problems. You may wish to ignore that reality, but it is nonetheless an inconvenient truth. I am uncomfortable about seeing military action taken now, as it seems a case of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. Things have got much more complicated than they should have been. My point is that non-intervention is not always the answer, as it can simply kick the can down the road. We are where we are, but we really shouldn't be.
Incidentally, if any other county had used chemical weapons for any reason, that situation should be dealt with accordingly. That does not mean military action must be taken. There is more than one way to skin a cat. I am however, intrigued by how often "false flag" operations are suggested nowadays, (Salisbury and Syria being recent examples). I suppose it's a useful way to dodge uncomfortable questions.
Captain Haddock- Location: Marlinspike Hall
- Registered: 8 Oct 2012
- Posts: 7,470
Spot on SWWood.
A number on the Forum seem to have been at the Kool-Aid recently!
'If no one went no faster than what I do there'd be a sight less trouble in this world'
ray hutstone- Registered: 1 Apr 2018
- Posts: 2,158
#578 Not "directly" but indirectly. Western powers were not the original cause. Should we now compound the situation?
Captain Haddock- Location: Marlinspike Hall
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- Posts: 7,470
ray hutstone wrote:#578 Not "directly" but indirectly. Western powers were not the original cause. Should we now compound the situation?
'Directly' stet. Made a conscious decision to do nothing as things were 'complicated' and are now faced with a situation where things have become much more 'complicated'.
'If no one went no faster than what I do there'd be a sight less trouble in this world'