Terry Nunn
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,321
#1
I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned this before. Roger De Haan has put the redevelopment of Folkestone Harbour on hold because of the current economic situation, i.e. he can't find enough other people to stump up the money.
Given that DTIZ has limped along with nothing happening for years in what were good times, where on earth will it go now in this current climate?
Alright, I may be one of the doom and gloom brigade as mentioned in Graham's editorial in the Mercury last week (he's a nice bloke by the way, we've been friends for 40 years) but I have to say that serious doubts must be in the minds of the elders up at the Fort.
I have always been against a supermarket there. It will kill the town's small traders and cause huge traffic jams in an already congested area.
Mind you, it might make a good site for a new hospital, but that's another story.
Terry
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
#2
Indeed Terry.............
#3
Hear hear, Terry, as we have concurred before.
I know Graham too from my days at the East Kent Mercury, and he's a lovely chap. But there's no point forcing a positive spin onto the gloomy reality of Dover's current shanty town status without there being tangible evidence to the contrary, such as the legion carbuncles being demolished, rebuilt, tarted up or at least moving ahead in some manner.
Again, one more of umpteen times: I'll believe it when I see it.
And to re-iterate, Terry, echoing your sentiments: Asda would be the ultimate nail in the coffin for the town. What Dover needs and deserves is a more gentle, organic, sympathetic and considered level of town planning - not the rapacious, cadaverous Wal-Mart Mothership landing in Townwall Street, swallowing, choking and clogging everything around it, and thereby sucking the marrow of that which is already stuffed to the gunwhales anyway.
DDC, DHB, SEEDA et al: pass the brain cell, please, if you have one, there's good chaps...
Happy Dover daze...White Army and that!
Andy
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#4
i don't think that DHB or SEEDA give a monkey's about the town.
much as i respect the viewpoints of terry and andrew, nobody else other than asda has offered anything at all.
the choice appears to be leave things as they are, or hope that the new development attracts further development to the town.
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
#5
My feeling Andrew is that we have to grab ASDA with both hands on this. As Howard says there, and indeed as Paul Watkins himself has said before, all other options were tried but there was no take up...so we really have to pray this goes ahead or it will be left as is until our generation passes away and our kids will have to tackle the same problem years hence. And we will all have to live with the current dereliction for years to come. While ASDA may not be everybody's cup of tea it will be a damn sight better than our current bleak situation.
Yes Terry some small shops may be hit but others may thrive being right next door to Asda as it will bring people with spending power into the town. Obviously if you were a small grocer you would be concerned...but other than that it could be good for all and will bring more jobs too.
Let's hope the current economic downturn wont scupper this move forward.
#6
It has to be said that there has been oodles of time before the current economic situation to get things moving......decades in fact. If our economic blip impacts on Dover regeneration the finger will point at those officially charged with managing Dover for not progressing quickly enough.
#7
don,t hold your breath re:asda opening up in dover ,rumour has it that they are finding it hard to make their forecasted profits in folkestone, so what hope in dover?
Unregistered User
#8
De-contamination work is currently being completed on old Stagecoach garage, prior to demolition. Otherwise Asda & others are still in & meeting next week. Slow progress but still progress. As in all business negotiations, there are always snags to be overcome. This is a complex multi ownership site covered by one planning permission.
Watty
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
#9
I'm no expert on financing or new constructions but I hope I have a feel for the town and what could or could not attract visitors and enhance the town.Asda ain't it!!!Most towns have an Asda so why shop in Dover?No reason.
If the Council really wanted to do something they could have built a Square with cafes & restaurants surrounded by Antique type shops making it a place to visit before you return to Europe or your Cruise Liner.Buy a genuine antique or a bit of old silver,an old gold fob watch etc you get my drift.We could challenge Brighton for the title by offering discounted rents to attract some major players.Even a well known Auction house on the doorstep of Europe could attract the odd entrepreneur from mainland Europe looking for a bargain.We need something that other towns dont have.We will never be a typical British seaside resort cos of our pebble beaches.We have tons of historical sites that could be linked with a regular steam pulled Pullman stopping in Dover.A combined rail and White Cliffs Tour..Where after you have seen the sights one could browse around the square take in a coffee and look around.This combined with arts and crafts shops may just may be the answer all I do know is that Asda definitely isn't the solution to Dovers long term problems.
Here endeth the lesson.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Terry Nunn- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,321
#10
Absolutely Marek. I'm fed up with being told "It's all we get so we must be grateful for it".
Terry
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
#11
Sounds lovely - Brighton had the right idea with The Lanes. We have so much here to use as attractions........
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
#12
Well Marek that sounds great for sure but alas its a pipedream and will never happen..thats even more unlikely to happen than the current option, and for dreamers only. You describe a Covent Garden that cost billions and zillions. Who pays? Asda are picking up the costs or some of the costs on the proposed new development as I understand it. This makes it attractive to some.
I can see the place you describe dead as a dornail all year save for a few months in summer. Dovorians rarely go out at night wining and dining, especially during the week so who would frequent all the restaurants? who would keep them alive? Brighton is much bigger and richer and is indeed fantastic with its thriving lanes and busy busy restaurants but didnt we try it here on a smaller scale previously..ermm wasnt it called the Charlton Centre, whatever happened to that!
Terry you may be tired of hearing that one but.. well...wasnt it/isnt it the only option in reality?
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
#13
PaulB
The reason many Dovorians don't go out in the town centre is twofold
1. having your head kicked in by some drunken drug fuelled moron and
2. the very limited but good choice of town centre restaurants that Dover has to offer.
Solution
1. to curb the drunks have a Police Officer plus a PSCO on duty in the Market Sq Fri Sat Sun evenings
2. increase the number of restaurants in Dover by reducing rents and rates.
I was talking to a local and long term business man in Dover this morning and he has contacts in London but they won't come to Dover because of the 'London type rents and rates on businesses' and we don't the chimney pots to sustain them.
The rent on a local restaurant(now closed) without a liquor licence with a 10 yr lease is £15k pa.You have to sell a lot of dinners to clear the rent never mind labour goods heat & light etc.
If the council is serious in rebranding the town then they should offer some incentive especially in these hard pressed times to small and big businesses by offering discounts on rates.rents and advertising space in their glossy magazines they publish and distribute at great cost.Most of which go unread and straight into the bin or recycle box if you have one.
The DDC should make a long term investment not just a vote catching 4 year wonder.Look we got Asda to Dover and then what happens when Asda moves on like Sainsburys did from Charlton Shopping Centre and Tesco's did from next to St Marys Church..great unfillable voids.The town centre died on its feet when the council took their 30 pieces of silver from Tesco and betrayed the townfolk ,the Dovorians.All in the name of a quick buck.The DDC should build something that could last a generation or more and leave a legacy to be proud of not an open weeping wound and an eyesore.
Here endeth the lesson Part 2
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
#14
Ah, Marek, its sound so simple.
Last Autumn I was examining business rents in Dover with a business associate, a multi-millionnaire from France, who commented how low the business rents are in Dover!
The owners of the properties are the ones who have to decide what rents are charged on their premises and that depends on the market. Also the Council does not determine the business rates, the rateable values are determined by a division of Inland Revenue and the poundage set by the Government.
I am not sure what properties the Council owns in the Town Centre but I am pretty sure they are limited and not necessarily right for restaurants. Even if they did own an empty property suitable for a restaurant business I can see all sorts of problems with allowing a below market rent. Other restaurants would have good reason to complain about anti-competitive practices with the council effectively subsidising a commercial enterprise.
At the moment we are in very difficult economic circumstances and all our town centre businesses are up against it. Only yesterday I became aware of a shop in Canterbury having to close with the owners likely to end up bankrupted. This shop was one offering a unique and high quality service and counts celebrities among its clients (the model Katie Price being one). I knew they had problems but the recession has killed it off (I know its not an 'official' recession I am convinced we are well into a retail recession right now). If a shop like that in Canterbury cannot survive then Dover's businesses must really be having problems.
As for discount offers by DDC for advertising. I think you answered that yourself. Advertising for small businesses in local publications is not going to save any business and certainly will not be a significant factor in boosting trade. Word of mouth has far more importance for any business particularly something like a restaurant, anything brought in by such publications is the cream on top. I personally advertise in a number of 'community based' media but most of it is to obtain a profile and to support these organisations rather than with any expectation of making a lot of money from it.
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
#15
Yes Asda is the only offer and I really do appreciate the effort being put in by so many, but still don't feel that anyone has justified why this is a good idea! Just because it's the only plan being presented doesn't necessarily mean that it is a good one. I look at the proposal for the redevelopment of the St James area but I don't really see regeneration. This is not town planning at any stretch of the imagination, this is merely exchanging one object for another. What is the brief here? I'd like someone to explain what the problems of this site are before telling us that this is the solution. If this is about putting something on the site that is better than what is currently there; then clear the site, lay turf, and plant some trees. This would also fulfil the 'better than what is there now' brief at a fraction of the cost.
So many of the people in Dover that dream of something else for this area ( many on this site) are clearly talking about schemes that evoke a sense of place, character and use. People want something that will bring new capacity to the town, something that supermarkets never have and never will. Creating 80 minimum wage jobs and undercutting all the shops in the town seems like an odd choice. Money is spent by the local customers and then never gets reinvested locally (the opposite of smaller businesses.) Where is the precedent for the current proposal? Where has this kind of development in a similar situation proved successful in the past?
Mixed use development is the way forward and the spaces you talk of being empty PaulB are populated by the people that live in the area. Victorian and Georgian proportions facilitate this very well in places like Brighton and areas of London. Newer interpretations of this idea are used throughout Europe, I can think of quite a few around the Republic of Ireland. Towns that provide capacity for change can't fail because at the very least we always need accommodation for our ever expanding population. Georgian houses are so useful for this reason, having very adaptable proportions; towns can be made like this too.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#16
dt
my understanding is that there will be a parkland type of walkway to the seafront.
to all
the council cannot open new businesses, they can try to attract them, that is all.
the reason they cannot attract the nice bijou little businesses is that there is not enough spending power in the town.
most of us are looking for the cheapest deal, only the larger retailers(like ASDA) can provide this.
my argument in favour of ASDA is that they will compete with tossco, not the town centre shops.
maybe , we should leave the bombsite for another 50 years?
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#17
dt
my understanding is that there will be a parkland type of walkway to the seafront.
to all
the council cannot open new businesses, they can try to attract them, that is all.
the reason they cannot attract the nice bijou little businesses is that there is not enough spending power in the town.
most of us are looking for the cheapest deal, only the larger retailers(like ASDA) can provide this.
my argument in favour of ASDA is that they will compete with tossco, not the town centre shops.
maybe , we should leave the bombsite for another 50 years?
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
#18
Howard - good post even if done twice. You and I are completely in agreement on this one, well I never
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
#19
Yes I agree with Howard as well, maybe we should.
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
#20
When Asda did their little presentation in Pencester Gardens I did ask if they would be offering any full time jobs with any sort of career potential. The final total was that there 'could be' up to twenty, but some of those will go to staff already employed by them elsewhere. However Asda and their parent company, Wall Mart, have an atrocious record on their treatment of their staff and pay out millions every year fighting claims from disgruntled employees. Only a couple of years ago they got rid of a load of middle management jobs to enable them to continue to "undercut all local competition".
The day after their presentation I walked through the park and was horrified at the amount of rubbish that was strewn around where their tent had been, much of it bearing their logo and little of it bagged up. Was this a foretaste of what we can expect from their store?
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour