Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Tim Montgomerie on ConHome has drawn up a list of what we do not like about the EU and the European Court. Such a list would form part of a renegotiation/exit strategy.
Here is Tim's list
1/ Britain pays a lot more into the EU than it gets out.
2/ The EU budget keeps going up while UK budgets are being cut.
3/ The high wages and expenses of Members of the European Parliament.
4/ EU red tape that hurts UK business.
5/ Open borders with the EU that mean the British Parliament cannot control immigration.
6/ The way the Common Fisheries Policy has hurt the British fishing industry.
7/ Higher food prices caused by the Common Agricultural Policy.
8/ The lack of democratic control of decisions taken by the European Union.
9/ We joined a common market but the EU has become a political project with too much power in the hands of bureaucrats.
10/ The EU accounts haven't been audited properly for many years.
11/ EU waste and corruption.
12/ An EU aid budget that often doesn't reach the poor and hungry.
13/ The economic problems created by the Eurozone.
14/ Britain's large trade deficit with the EU.
15/ The sense that Britain plays by the rules and implements EU laws but other EU countries do not.
16/ EU environmental and renewable energy policies that are leading to higher energy policies.
17/ European human rights laws.
Over to you, what do you not like about this awful organisation?
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
the chap has certainly coverd the basics,i would totaly disagree with most of his argument.but there again would.
two points im in faver of,
5,i like open borders,gives you the freedom of movement.
17,human rights are essentual in todays enviroment.
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
Historically. The EU was one thing that could curb the excesses of any Tory minority Government. A very good thing!
1/ Are we to seek charity?
2/ We only have our own Parliament to blame.
3/ Better that they cheat and steal as our own do?
4/ Bring back slavery?
5/ You get your cop-outs where you can.
6/ As if we have no say in this.
7/ The farmers say the opposite. Blame the Super Markets.
8/ ...matches our Parliament to a 'tee'.
9/ So it should just be in the hands of the Politicians?
10/ Who's have?
11/ As with much of this. Where would politicians get their moans from otherwise?
12/ So really. Who needs two types of Tory?
13/ Pot & Kettle.
14/ ...which is a benefit in negotiations?
15/ Sense?? So, another duplication of bureaucracies?
16/ Who is it that cannot bring themselves to write 'prices'?
17/ Better to let elected Police Commissioners decide on a blow-by-blow basis?
There is much wrong with they way the EU has developed, although many, if not quite all, of these wrongs stem from a setting apart of decisions from any Democratic control. However, much of what the EU has accomplished does cut across Political Idealogical barriers and speaks far more for the common man than is the case with any of the Parties we can choose from at Westminster.
One way to improve matters would be for a closer relationship to develop between the Electorates and this 'central' Government.
Having Party-Political advantage seeking in the mix turns the whole thing into a Plaything.
Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
Guest 683- Registered: 11 Feb 2009
- Posts: 1,052
Oh, this is so dull!
We can expect to be inundated with loads of anti EU stuff as the Little Englanders brush down their Union Flag waistcoats, don their Top Hats, leash their Bulldogs and shout abuse at their television or on any internet forum, inflamed by their newspapers warning them of the foreigners coming over here stealing our jobs and women and eating our children................
Lord Howell of Guildford (Conservative) seems to have a better grasp on reality:
"This Government believe that EU membership is in our interests. The Single Market is the world's most important trading zone, generating total GDP of over £10.5 trillion in 2009 and giving us access to 500 million consumers without the barriers of customs or tariffs. The resultant economic benefits for individuals are very real with approximately 3.5 million jobs, ie 10 per cent of the UK workforce, benefiting from exports to EU member states. The beneficial effect of EU trade on UK households is estimated at between £1,100 and £3,300 per year.
EU membership also gives us better leverage internationally. Collective action gives us more negotiating power and allows us to better achieve our international security objectives on issues such as conflict prevention, stabilisation, climate change, human rights and development. For British citizens, the benefits of EU membership are many and varied, from free movement across EU member states, to the option to study and work within the EU without requiring a work permit, to the European Health Card (EHIC), which enables UK holiday-makers and travellers to receive free or reduced cost healthcare on temporary visits to EU member states.
On this basis, and given the complexity and cost of measuring the many variables involved, the Government do not consider it appropriate to conduct their own cost benefit analysis of UK EU membership".
Hansard, 8th February 2011.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
18. The fact that nobody in Britain actually elected any of the people in power. (and don't try telling me that MEPs have power, they do not).
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
nice try from lord howell, full of factul inaccuracies though.
there is no chance of any european member state putting tarrifs up against us, there is no freedom of movement(we need a 10 year passport just for a non lander) and the e.h.i.c. covers very little, certainly not a replacement for full insurance.
if we were out of EU people would still trade with us as are rates and goods would be cheaper,I think the worst part of the EU is all these rules and regulations they impose on us we have lost a lot of good British pubs because of there no smoking ban it seems they are the masters with out a shot being fired,Lets stand alone we would be better of in the long run.
Guest 725- Registered: 7 Oct 2011
- Posts: 1,418
So any French person who has a problem with the EU is a little Frenchman. The same can be said of a German who has problems with the EU.
Furthermore it must apply to any Italian who doesn't like the lack of democracy in the EU is a little Italian.
I think that describing anyone who doesn't hold the received view held by liberals and the left in general is rather old fashioned don't you? It's rather like suggesting that anyone who sees problems with immigration as a racist or those who know that global warming is a scam as a "denier".
Political issues should be discussed openly and to pigeon-hole those who consider the EU as undemocratic, wasteful with a history of fraud on a vast scale as little Englanders does nothing to further the debate.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
the little englander issue does not hold much water, just listen to the citizens of greece, spain and portugal.
the germans are 50/50 on bringing back the desutsche mark and most are extremely sceptical of the european union in its present form, hardly surprising as their growth forecast for the next 12 months has been revised down 1.8% to 1%.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Interesting points raised, a whole load of simplistic warped cop-outs from Tom though.
As for you Mark - Much better 'Little Englanders in charge of our own destiny than being serfs of the EU fascists.
Lord Howell, how I remember that 'wet'.... Typical pile of tosh a forerunner of the tidal wave of lies and scares that the EU lobby will throw at any debate. We have seen it before they are utterly ruthless and care nothing about democracy and truth. Remember the smokescreen of lies they threw up when they found that their consitution was going to be rejected and decided to call it a Treaty instead to avoid people having their say in referenda. Remember how a referendum that does not reach the decision they wants has to be retaken until the EU gets its way... We really have to get away from the fascists in Brussels. They are truly in the tradition of Joe Gobbels.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
The benefits of a customs union/free trade zone are obvious to everyone but nobody has ever explained satisfactorily to me why that should lead to each country in such a union handing over its Sovereignty, governance and legislative process to a central body whose decision makers are self-appointed.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,888
......We can expect to be inundated with loads of anti EU stuff as the Little Englanders brush down their Union Flag waistcoats, don their Top Hats, leash their Bulldogs and shout abuse at their television or on any internet forum, inflamed by their newspapers warning them of the foreigners coming over here stealing our jobs and women and eating our children................
What an offensive term Little Englander can be. I do not have a single Union Flag item of clothing, Top Hat, Bulldog and do not shout abuse at the tv or the forum.
I have yet to be told what the EU has done that has been of real benefit to the UK. I agree with most of the opening list and the human rights law only seems to be of benefit to those who break the law.
BTW anyone who has met me knows I hardly qualify as a little Englander.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
howard,we us englanders havent signed up to the shenanagan agreement yet,not likly to either as anti euro people are to scared to,as might let in undesiarables.
baryy,lord howell might be classed as a wet but what he as stated rings some form of truth.
tom,well analized to counter barrys opener.
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
Thank you Brian. I did think the question was "What DO you like about the EU." Silly me.
Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
1. Britain is still one of the largest recipients of EU subsidies and pays "over the top" for services, wages and expenses. Perhaps if you deducted the cost in wages and expenses of the British Euro MP's you would see more of a balance.
2. So the EU is increasing budgets to care for the needs and welfare of all while Britain is making politically motivated (in most but not all cases) cuts, with little regard for the effects on the most vulnerable.
3. Not even the British representatives.
4. How much of the Red Tape is caused by the excessive zeal the British government shows in taking one-policy and adding ten laws and twenty penalties to it?
5. Britain is an island and should therefore have a head start on policing its borders. Part of that involves us requiring a full passport to get across our own borders and other shortfalls in 'security' are down to British policy (and possibly the poor negotiating skills of the representatives we send out there who have more interest in getting us out than making it work).
6. Talk to Iceland about British fishing rights, you could get some interesting answers.
7. Everyone is suffering higher food prices and there are many reasons, including droughts, domestic unrest, tariffs and even 'Fair Trade'.
8. If our representatives are failing to argue our case and reach democratic decisions maybe we need better representatives.
9. Again, we send out Euro politicians to discuss policies and priorities, are they failing to do their jobs?
10. So what are our representatives doing?
11. Waste and corruption is endemic in far too many political and business organisations, perhaps a case of looking after the plank in our eye before looking for the splinters elsewhere.
12. All aid packages from all sources need far better checking than they ever get. A closer look at the governments receiving the aid should be looked at worldwide.
13. Do our representatives do nothing?
14. As has already been said, a useful negotiating tool so are our representatives making use of it?
15. Much the same as the answer for number 4. Are those countries that see the directives as guidelines to blame for the British governments obsession with controlling every detail?
16. I do not think that a government seeking to sell our forests and make it possible to build on our green lands has a lot to protest on environmental issues.
17. It is nice to know that there is at least one body looking out for Human Rights.
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Nice try Chris but you have to try harder...
1/ All EU countries have their MEPs relative to population on the EU pay-scale so to try to cut that argument is frankly utterly absurd.
2/ Budget cuts in the UK are essential because of the insane overspending of the previous government. Sadly not enough is being cut, too little over too long a time.
3/ Part of the shear exorbitant cost of the EU
4/ There is certainly some truth in that with goldplating better not to have these regulations however in the first place.
5/ In practise we do not have the controls we should have and are still subject to EU rules.
6/ So what.
7/ But made worse by the CAP
8/ We simply have a different society to much of Europe and see things differently. N'er the twain shall meet...
9/ Still subject to unelected EU Commission diktat
10/ Not enough, they should be working to get us out of this emerging fascist state and restore our independence but most get sucked into the EU gravy train
11/ Two wrong do not make a right, and the EU really takes the pee in waste and corruption.
12/ True, but common sense and the EU do not mix
13/ Repeating yourself again. The undemocratic structures of the EU cannot be changed by us alone, beside, so what - why on earth should we be interfered with by what should only be a free trade area.
14/ That is why no tarif barriers will be raised against us if we quit the madhouse
15/ Just another reason for us to be better off out.
16/ No relevance to the issue at hand
17/ We had plenty of 'human rights' before we joined the EU and now they are just about rights for the lazy and lousy - with no counterbalancing duties.
Chris - as I said good try but a bit of a failure overall....
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
barry
you have to admit that it is very rare that a pro european gives detailed answers on the subject of the union.
usually they just go into the "little englander" routine or do a ted heath and sneer at the questioner.
as a eurosceptic i rather like the idea of hearing the other side of the story.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Oh alright, then! What I like about the EU?
That it's got 12 stars on a blue piece of cardboard, which, however, are not clestial, but paper.
I tried it out once with a match, and they burned!
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
we have a very nice sign post in military hill with the e.u. logo alex.
worth 42 million of anyones money.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
I know, Howard, it's near the Templar's church. I noted that it indicates a road as public, even though another sign nearby indicates this same road as private.