howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
26 January 2011
21:3990361i must agree with ddt here.
firstly, education has always been used as a political football to the detriment of the pupils, michael gove is just the latest shallow politico to try and make a name out of it.
secondly, understanding a subject is not the same as getting a pass mark.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
26 January 2011
23:1790362Are you suggesting then that the Labour legacy of devalued exams and pc nonsense should be left as it is?
Do you realise, for instance, that Labours national curriculum only specifies two people from British history be taught in schools, Wilberforce and some unknown African ex slave? No requirements to learn about Churchill, Nelson, Wellington, Marlborough, Drake etc etc etc - all of whom were once household names and now unknown to the younger generation. What about the great Empire builders, how many kids these days know the fascinating story of Cecil Rhodes for instance? When children think Churchill is a nodding dog selling insurance it is time the education system was totally shaken up.
The present position is simply intolerable.
Gove is going to correct that and so he should. Political football - maybe, but why the hell should it be left in the sorry state Labour left it in.
The fact is Labour are obsessed with using education to pursue their social engineering and pc agenda and not with real teaching of what matters and what and who made this country great.
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,895
26 January 2011
23:3390363The trouble with education policy is it has followed whatever the education 'fashion' is at the time policy is being drawn up. Sometimes that 'fashion' has been good but in the last 20 to 30 years it has been a load of old tosh never mind the party in power at the time.
Tory and Labour have been following the 'fashion' as touted by the so called experts, so both are to blame.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
27 January 2011
00:1990364When I went to school they taught us the heavy pieces on the chess-board of British history, including Captain Cook, who fed his men on vile-tasting rotting vegetables to prevent them getting scurby. Who refused got a whipping, for their own benefit!
They taught us how the Navy sometimes resorted to recruiting men onto warships: if a shilling didn't work, then a clobbering and off to the waiting ship in a rowing boat.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
27 January 2011
00:5390365What is relevant is to examine how the high-performing countries run their education systems. Ours is obviously bust in many ways and needs fixing but harking back to how it used to be in the old days should not be part of the change process. Competitor analysis is the way forward.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
27 January 2011
07:0890368so barry are you suggesting that the schools go back to useing slate boards and chalk with endless repition of the times tables,and long boring lessions of how this country ruled the world.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
27 January 2011
07:4690371My understanding of Barry's post Brian, had nothing to do with chalk-boards or boring lessons, but changing the content of those lessons and being proud to be English/British - what's wrong with teaching our young schoolchildren real history about their own country, not a narrow politically-agendered one, that ignores everything that was great (and not so great) and just talks about slavery and black emancipation.
Roger
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
27 January 2011
08:1190372Brian - there is a lot to be said about that.
I am not talking about fashion, but about what should be taught and how.
Jan, you make a good point but the problem is that the educational establishment is wedded to left wing ideals and has been for a long time. One of Mrs T's failures was not to wrest education away from them. It has been subject to too many experiments in trendy teaching. The idea that you should not correct spelling and grammar for instance, teaching in all ability groups, getting rid of grammars, anti-competition in the classroom and outside, not enough discipline including getting rid of the cane - these are all to blame for the demise of education.
Gove is not tackling all that but he is making a start on some of it and so he should.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
27 January 2011
10:3690379Barry W
One can't go about caning small people it's non productive,violent,barbaric and totally unacceptable.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 700- Registered: 11 Jun 2010
- Posts: 2,868
27 January 2011
12:5590385History - to me - should be how people actually lived, in their everyday lives, not just kings and queens, dates, and wars.
But more discipline is definitely needed. Not necessarily physical punishment though.
Trouble is that students and children are not taught respect for their elders, nor that they have to conform.
---------------------------------------------------
Lincolnshire Born and Bred
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
27 January 2011
13:1790388Marek - I totally disagree with you.
Far better a short sharp painful lesson than all the long drawn out 'interventions' and all the costs and rubbish that goes with it. There is nothing wrong with a spot of well judged physical punishment. Clearly it should not be overdone and, indeed, it works best if kept as an ultimate deterrant rarely used, along with a good dose of ritual humiliation to the wrongdoer.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
27 January 2011
13:5390389caning never worked, always the same names in the book.
from what i remember it was used by useless teachers who couldn't control a class.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
27 January 2011
14:5290394You could not be more wrong Howard. Your 'reason' is not more than a nice cosy excuse and dig at more traditional teaching and simply does not hold water.
Not so many years back when Clive Hyde was headmaster of Barton he was a big believer in the cane being available. He used it rarely and mostly on bullies, but was enough to keep the lid on the behaviour at the school. If it gets used too often it can lose its deterance effect and become just part of the risks of bad behaviour and that is why Clive was so successful. The cane was abolished just before he retired and he predicted that discipline would suffer at the school as a result - he was completely right. The school has improved since the decline but at a great cost in time and money with all the so called modern interventions. Far better to bring back that cane.
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,895
27 January 2011
16:0290404Kath, as you say there is very little respect for anyone by many of today's youngsters.
Totally agree with you Howard.
Barry, the threat of the cane might do some good, whether the use of it would be of any benefit is something I very much doubt.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
27 January 2011
16:0590405i don't see a link between corporal punishment and traditional teaching barry, two different issues altogether.
good teachers control classes and hold th attention of the pupils.
besides i doubt many modern day teachers would start whacking their errant pupils with a lump of wood, those days are long gone.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
27 January 2011
16:4890416Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
27 January 2011
16:5490419The key issue on school discipline is whether parents will back the school when little Johnny has been caught smoking behind the bike sheds. Nowadays it's quite likely that an angry parent will back the child. That does not help school discipline in general or classroom discipline in particular.
Whether sanctions applied are corporal or designed to embarrass is irrelevant. Without parental support school authorities are impotent and any sanctions will fail.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,895
27 January 2011
16:5890420Maybe Howard knew how to behave so never had to receive the cane.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
27 January 2011
18:2990426So much talk about canes and whacking. Perhaps we could turn Blakes into a punishment cell for naughty boys, the punishment of course being administered by even naughtier girls (see other thread on Pole dancing).
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
27 January 2011
18:2990427unfortunately not the case jan.
