Sid Pollitt
5 December 2008
13:1710408#41
Roger you may know a little of my past but you do not know my present and, as we\'ve never met, you do not know me so please dont try to discredit my opinions and comments. I think your \'tactic\' should be to get your message across, if I and others do not agree maybe it\'s because you\'re not trying hard enough or the message aint that convincing.
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
5 December 2008
13:4810413#42
Roger, the same applies to all those who are fanatical about their beliefs. Read back on some of your own, or BarryW\'s, emphatic defences of Conservative policies and politicians. Both sides tend towards defensive reasoning rather than considering points in the others argument. There is good and bad in every opinion and it is worth taking the time to sift through for the differences.
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
5 December 2008
17:5810430#43
"you cannot have a reasoned argument, or use logic, with dyed-in-the-wool lefties"
I'm not sure where anyone on this thread (right of centre) has used reasoning or logic! Barry has said it's just left wing rubbish and then just copied a rathered biased appraisal from a Tory writting in the Telegraph. I'm not sure where the logic or reason come into play here?
I'd just like to point out that if something is in print it doesn't automatically make it fact. I read a book last night to my son about 'someone with extraordinarily long arms'. Even if this is published in the Telegraph or the Guardian Mr Tickle still isn't real...sorry!
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
5 December 2008
18:0110431#44
i must take issue with you there DT.
nr tickle is real and so is pinnochio, he even has his own show in town at present.
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
5 December 2008
18:2510433#45
Please don't tell me Santa isn't real, I would have to start buying the children presents.
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
5 December 2008
21:4310449#46
As a dyed in the wool leftie I feel very able to discuss and retract and listen and take on new views (see my previous thread, and thank you Barry!!!) But I rather like the idea of banging a Torys head against the wall if the offer is still there Roger...............
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
6 December 2008
08:1310470#47
I hate to tell you Chris but Santa falls into the same category as 'society' (according to Mrs T that is!)
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
6 December 2008
14:5110484#48
I am gutted. Still, at least we still have the Great Pumpkin.
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
6 December 2008
17:3010493#49
Yes DT1 and since then she has been misquoted so many times - here is the speech in full; so you can see - if you read it all, it is about responsibilities - personal responsibilities, not relying on the State all the time, or blaminmg others.
"I think we have gone through a period when too many children and people have been given to understand"I have a problem, it is the Government's job to cope with it!" or"I have a problem, I will go and get a grant to cope with it!" "I am homeless, the Government must house me!" and so they are casting their problems on society and who is society? There is no such thing! There are individual men and women and[fo 1] there are families and no government can do anything except through people and people look to themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then also to help look after our neighbour and life is a reciprocal business and people have got the entitlements too much in mind without the obligations, because there is no such thing as an entitlement unless someone has first met an obligation and it is, I think, one of the tragedies in which many of the benefits we give, which were meant to reassure people that if they were sick or ill there was a safety net and there was help, that many of the benefits which were meant to help people who were unfortunate—" It is all right. We joined together and we have these insurance schemes to look after it" . That was the objective, but somehow there are some people who have been manipulating the system and so some of those help and benefits that were meant to say to people:"All right, if you cannot get a job, you shall have a basic standard of living!" but when people come and say:"But what is the point of working? I can get as much on the dole!" You say:"Look" It is not from the dole. It is your neighbour who is supplying it and if you can earn your own living then really you have a duty to do it and you will feel very much better!"
There is also something else I should say to them:"If that does not give you a basic standard, you know, there are ways in which we top up the standard. You can get your housing benefit."
But it went too far. If children have a problem, it is society that is at fault. There is no such thing as society.[fo 2] There is living tapestry of men and women and people and the beauty of that tapestry and the quality of our lives will depend upon how much each of us is prepared to take responsibility for ourselves and each of us prepared to turn round and help by our own efforts those who are unfortunate. And the worst things we have in life, in my view, are where children who are a great privilege and a trust—they are the fundamental great trust, but they do not ask to come into the world, we bring them into the world, they are a miracle, there is nothing like the miracle of life—we have these little innocents and the worst crime in life is when those children, who would naturally have the right to look to their parents for help, for comfort, not only just for the food and shelter but for the time, for the understanding, turn round and not only is that help not forthcoming, but they get either neglect or worse than that, cruelty.
How do you set about teaching a child religion at school, God is like a father, and she thinks"like someone who has been cruel to them?" It is those children you cannot ... you just have to try to say they can only learn from school or we as their neighbour have to try in some way to compensate. This is why my foremost charity has always been the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, because over a century ago when it was started, it was hoped that the need for it would dwindle to nothing and over a hundred years later the need for it is greater, because we now realise that the great problems in life are not those of housing and food and standard of living. When we have[fo 3] got all of those, when we have got reasonable housing when you compare us with other countries, when you have got a reasonable standard of living and you have got no-one who is hungry or need be hungry, when you have got an education system that teaches everyone—not as good as we would wish—you are left with what? You are left with the problems of human nature, and a child who has not had what we and many of your readers would regard as their birthright—a good home—it is those that we have to get out and help, and you know, it is not only a question of money as everyone will tell you; not your background in society. It is a question of human nature and for those children it is difficult to say:"You are responsible for your behaviour!" because they just have not had a chance and so I think that is one of the biggest problems and I think it is the greatest sin."
Copyright © Margaret Thatcher Foundation 2008. All Rights Reserved.
If every one had this attitude, the world would be a much better place.
Roger
6 December 2008
18:0010498#50
Hitler was a vegetarian.
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
6 December 2008
20:3710505#51
Another momentous copy and paste exercise there from the Conservatives, marvellous!
Thanks anyway Roger, although I have read this before and there really is no misquote. The little interview, which I think is from 'Women's Own' (or some other publication that negates the suffragette movement) actually just confirms the 'there is no such thing as society' quote and its intent, placing the emphasis on individuals. Incidentally I find it amusing that the most powerful woman of the 20th century doesn't even believe in feminism...but then that is just another inconsistency all together!
The problem with individualism (of which Mrs. T would be openly subscribed to) is the fact that by our very development we are not autonomous. We have reached a point of evolution which makes us dependent on others by the complexity of our needs. This starts at family level, extends to community and then to society. In an industrialised country, it is impossible to be autonomous (even Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall relies on book royalties) As a result services and goods have to exchanged, or as Mrs Thatcher says 'reciprocated'. The problem is by operating an individualist mentality (by human nature) certain people suffer inequalities at the hands of others or get 'screwed over', at best this results in a feudal system that is the precursor of our class system. I would honestly subscribe to individualism if we were given a level playing field but as Mrs T also acknowledges, we are not (the result of both natural and environmental conditions). Children do not asked to get born into deprivation and their immediate social group (that is family and demographic, which actually has a profound effect on their outlook) Individualism has the power to raise them out of this situation (albeit only to a certain level generally) but ironically it is this individualism, twinned with their "background in society" that makes them think to 'get what they can' and sod the fact that the welfare state was set up to support, not to wholly provide for the self-centred.
For someone to say that it is not the fault of society that people do not adhere to its doctrines is nothing short of paradoxical. After all that's what our sense of what right and wrong is: the consensus of society and it's combined beliefs (or as Thomas Paine would call 'common sense').
So every time you see a group of youths demonstrating 'anti-social' behaviour (by definition an act of individualism), remember these young people are very happy to accept the responsibility of their actions, as far as they are concerned it is society that has a problem with it. It is up to society to say "No, this is wrong and WE will not let it ruin the lives of the people it affects" If it doesn't affect me personally it is still my problem, because one day it could. And also every time we moan about people not pulling together and supporting things, that is also the result of people looking (albeit short-sightedly) towards themselves before looking towards the whole.
Copyright © DT Foundation 2008. All Rights Reserved.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
6 December 2008
20:5210508#52
i loved that last bit "dt foundation 2008" !!
Guest 660- Registered: 14 Mar 2008
- Posts: 3,205
6 December 2008
22:3710512#53
DT1, been having a little problem in Tower Hamlets were groups of young 'eastern european' sorry Marek have been hanging around outside a house in a quiet road,we have set a CCTV camera up there,but still the problem carries on.Tonight I have been along there to ask them to dispurse because it is not fair on the residence.
I asked nicely and explained why,and they dispursed,hopefully with the CCTV camera the Community Warden and the PSCO along with the residents we can over come this problem.
This is a problem that all areas of the Community are working together on,we are hoping to find them something to keep them a bit more occupied,and the residents are hoping to have a meeting which is being arranged by the PSCO but hopefully by reasoning with them there were 25 -30 of them doing nothing illegal just making a lot of noise I may have just moved on the problem,but we will keep working on it.
If you knew what I know,we would both be in trouble!
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
6 December 2008
22:4810513#54
that is exactly the problem we had near me over a year ago.
when confronted i found the kids were mostly ok, just left to their own devices by useless parents.
when the youth club was running a few tried to join, but the rules for everyone were that forms had to be filled in using real names, and parental consent was required.
none of the parents were willing to do this, so the kids run amok.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
6 December 2008
22:5110514#55
JHG
There is a problem with these kids and most of it stems from their parents not ensuring they are behind closed doors at a reasonable time.Young boys and girls from about 5 years upwards wandering around Tower Hamlets.Its disgraceful and as me ol' Da would say "it will end in tears".
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
7 December 2008
05:1810517#56
My daughter lives in Tower Hamlets and she is concerned about the very young children left wandering around inthe early hours - she says kids as young as 5 and 6 are roaming at 03.00. Surely that is child neglect? Given recent publicity, quite rightly, about poor performance by London Boroughs Child Protection departments, shouldn't our local Dear Old Social Services be on the case? These children are clearly at risk.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
7 December 2008
06:4410518#57
Bern
I agree... nor does it appear that they attend school.Somebody somewhere has to investigate whose children they are,whats their status in the UK and advise the parents accordingly.Its really worrying.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
7 December 2008
08:3710520#58
I couldn't agree more with the above comments; it is scary and it is the responsibility of the parents, but the parents don't accept any responsibility for being parents.
John - the organisation you were talking about short time ago, who have come into Tower Hamlets, is it PACE, run by a chap called Dominic ?
He came to the Priory Forum meeting a week or so ago and explained how it works; the whole set-up is so encouraging; we all wish him and his group great success - it's so important for the local people.
Apparantly they talked with DDC to see which area needed working on first - Tower Hamlets, so good luck for having the area calmed down and the children - that's what they are, looked after.
I agree Marek, it is child neglect and they should call in social services - sadly we've all seen how poor their record is.
I'm sorry to emphasise the point here, but it does come down to individual responsibility - in this case, for being a parent. Responsibility comes in all guises.
Roger
7 December 2008
09:1210523#59
I couldn't agree more, and regular posters will know how strongly I feel about consequences and responsibilities! We all need to accept our responsibilities as well as our rights, especially as parents. but I wouldn't want that to absolve the rest of us from our societal responsibilities: it becomes too easy to say Social Services will sort it, the Police are involved so it's ok, her Aunt is popping in so it must be alright - I know we don't all do that but it does happen, and I think we have been made brutally aware of the consequences recently. No-one wants to be a tittle tattle, and talking to "the social" has always been made to seem a really underhand thing to do, but sometimes there is no other course of action to take, especially when children are involved. My daughter has only just told me about the children I mentioned - does anyone know anything substantial about them?
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
7 December 2008
09:3210525#60
It's a 50/50 split on the group of young people mentioned here. Some of them are quite happy to move on and are quite happy, polite and attending school. Many of them are attending some of the local youth clubs, of which I have heard many talk about the scheme in the discovery centre. This sort of scheme is invaluable. There are however a number who are displaying 'anti social behaviour' and some so young that social services are aware of the families. The problem is intervention is phenominally hard and expensive, essentially interfering with the negative rights of the 'individuals' involved.
Social services have unfortunatly got a bad press recently, because of our blame culture, it's sad as much of the problem is funding and people puting a price on the well being of children(you only have to look at the poor state of fostering run through the private sector). Something goes wrong and we need to blame something/someone. Roger who's blaming society now? afterall social services work in interests of society...otherwise it would be 'individual sevices'