Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
4 February 2010
13:2539618As did Andy in respect of his comments about Labour in the 70's and 80's howard. Sadly there are still many on the left that retain a belief in vandalising such schools.
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
4 February 2010
13:5939621Why must we accept things without question in the name of tradition? Something that reminds me of why 'Progressive Conservative' is such an oxymoron.
A lovely informative post Andy, and thank you for acknowledging my reasoning. This isn't about jealousy for me. I received a rounded education from the state, which has always allowed me to do what makes me happy (not rich) and I'm really thankful for this. I remember some of the ex-public school students that I encountered at university and at times felt more a sense of pity than jealousy. Unfortunately, their experience would seem not have been as rounded as yours Andy. I'm not saying 'get rid of' but 'let it not be a reason for' and this works both ways, at the bottom and top. All I ever question is the incongruence of banging on about 'working hard equals success' when this clearly isn't always true.
Some people are lucky, some privileged, some gifted. Some people get no opportunities and it's far too easy for us, that do, to misunderstand their situation...even if we are self made. As I say, I good friends that are from public school and by no means are they all the same. But to accept a self-perpetuating system that public school statistically is (high paid jobs occupied by public school students actually up last year, thanks New Labour) just proves the insincerity of parties claiming commitment to social mobility. The stupid model they present is one that requires everyone to move up...typical Capitalist mentality, forgetting that we live within finite parameters (half the reason such types try to deny the likes of global warming, because it doesn't fit their magical infinite model)
Roger, I appreciate your cheeky little comment about scraping Comprehensives but will reiterate: We don't actually have any in Dover. We could of course get rid of the state school system and return to the route of our class based society (I'll wait for someone to deny that class exists, along with global warming and poverty probably). However to regress to this state would ensure that people like you or I couldn't be Professionals or Councillors.
I find the whole concept of achievement and success funny when in conversations like this. It reminds me of reading something where Tony Blair defended sending his children to public school, unlike Harold Wilson's choice of State education, saying that he wanted his children to be successful. Wilson son's, I believe, one became a headmaster, the other a university lecturer. What Blair actually meant was: 'I'd like them to be rich.' Maybe we should start rating wars like this or our health...oh maybe we already have.
"Aren't grammar schools based on educational ability - the 11 plus ? So what's wrong with that then ? because they tend to have smaller classes ?"
No Roger, they are not in Dover (and some other towns too). As Barry highlighted when talking about taking too high a slice, they are actually the culprits of 'dumbing down'. As for the private sector, they don't even care about dumbing anything down, as long as you have the cash or status.
Bern (and I'm sorry to sound like a broken record on this) ...but statistically, based on academic results, Comprehensives produce the same spectrum of results as the two tiered system we have in Kent (Grammar School and Secondary Modern). Comprehensives don't expect everyone to be the same (having a streamed system), but acknowledge the world/space we occupy is the same!
4 February 2010
19:4639658Actually, I agree DT1 - all my children went to the grammars, and frankly it only suited 2 of them - I am now confident that the other 2 would have fared better at one of the other schools in Dover, because they operate more holistically. The 2 who have done/are doing ok with grammar are the ones who are clearly more academic - the other 2 aren't dummies but have different perpectives and different ways of learning. That was not factored in. I am absolutely sure that they would have progressed better and more happily at Archers Court. However, the others at grammar have done well - my son has just gone to Durham and his first set of marks indicate a probable first. He was suited to academic life!!!!
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
4 February 2010
22:1139669Let me add to the debate.
Firstly at the local level, just looking at the boys/girls grammar schools in Dover
The girls grammar far outweighed the boys and so amalgamation is probably a long way off.
Without getting into left/right the grammar in the main are for the wealthy.
What I will add though was that when i was in the labour party I would argue the national/local labour party policy on grammar schools wasnt correct.
At the time the labour party organiser had a son at the grammar the MP had a daughter at the girls grammar, the chair/treasurer had a boy at grammar
how could you then go on the doorstep opposing grammar schools.
Then we saw the turn around where labour when in govt decided to keep grammars all very confusing.
An honest posting from someone who usually supports labour from a personal point of view
4 February 2010
22:2039672Surely the only sure way of making sure of equal opportunities would be to select students by their qualifications (ability) only, taking no account of where they went to school or where they live. The same applies to job applications, etc. People should not be asked their sex, colour, religion, sexual orientation or anything else. This is the only way to be truly fair - to select applicants on ability, commitment, and willingness
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
4 February 2010
22:2339673Keith said: ""Without getting into left/right the grammar in the main are for the wealthy.""""
Really Keith by any standard that is the most incredible piece of tripe I have ever read on this forum. The opposite is true, Grammars have been and are a great aid to social mobility. Entry to both the boys and girls grammars are by passing a test and is nothing whatsoever to do with wealth. It does not matter how poor or well off a childs parents are, if the child pases the grammar test then he/she is in.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
4 February 2010
22:2539674Diana - we used to call it 'colour blind' and that is absolutely right. No-one should get special favours just because of colour/race/sex.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
4 February 2010
22:3439675Barryw
sadly if only life was that simple.
there are so many reasons why theres such diffrences between rich/poor and ability to pass test.
not having stable home life(not the childs fault)
adequate housing
overcrowded house
poor quality food
the list goes on
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
4 February 2010
22:3539676diane makes a good point about equality, why do they ask on job applications or even educational course forms the ethnic origin?
they leave boxes to tick, the boxes continue to grow.
the best one i have seen is now wait for it....................."irish traveller".
who thinks up these things?
can you picture the scene when a detective turns up at a murder scene and says "white caucasian", "negro", "irish traveller".
mind you, when replying to a job ad in the guardian it could be a plus to be one.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
5 February 2010
06:0639684I simply will not answer intrusive questions.
Keith - it is that simple. There have always been people in poor background who pull themselves up by their bootstraps and do well while others wallow in it. It comes down to taking personal responsibility for yourself.
5 February 2010
08:0639685To be "colour blind" also reduces opportunities. There are many factors involved in recruitment, particularly in my field, social support and care. To build a team at work involves balancing it with skills and attributes, some of which may indeed be gender related or race specific. That isn't to imply positive discrimination - or any discrimination - but to highlight that it is in fact much more complex than just "find the right person" without any additional factors.
5 February 2010
08:0839686BarryW - while I totally agree with the principle of consequences and responsibility, it is naive to ignore those other, highly significant, factors that impact on a childs potential to grow and develop. Look at those two children who horribly assaulted the other two children recently - they had such horrific backgrounds themselves they had no chances to develop properly, and I don't think anyone could deny that. What they did was vile, but what people did to them was equally vile and as far as I am concerned led directly to their behaviour.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
5 February 2010
11:0939689I am a great believer in tough love Bern. Our problem is that there is too much 'trying to understand' thast lets the feckless and even the downright criminal off the hook.
I certainly believe in giving people a hand up to get out of, or stay out of deprivation. The problem is that hand ups too often turn into hand outs that merely lock people into poverty. The only way to improve your lot is to work ultimately and it is better for us to improve opportunities to work than to increase or extend the benefit system.
As for those despicable parents you referred to, they are as responsible and guilty in my book as their children and should pay the price there can be no excuse for those parents, non at all.
5 February 2010
12:2039690Okay, I don't consider my family as a wealthy family, nor poor either to be honest. Two children, one went to DGSB and one to St Edmunds. Both did very well academically and family wealth had no bearing. As for home life, we are a normal family, in that we have the same problems to varying degrees as all other families. Our kids grew up knowing finanicial hardship and two parents who argued somewhat, usually because of the money situation. But we did what most folks do, stuck together and worked through the tough times and eventually life became good again.
No praise required, we are normal folks in a normal family doing what normal folks do. Our kids are normal kids who dealt with what they faced, it was how we brought them up. There is no secret, everyone can do what we did, its just that some choose not to, some have other priorities, and some need help, some are beyond help. But it has always been so and always will be so.
What I do want to acknowledge though is the excellent job done for my kids, and still being done for others by the staff of St Eddies and DGSB. The standard of education available in Dover is incredibly good but, sadly, there are many who don't make the most of the fabulous opportunity they have for learning in our town.
As for job applications, Diana missed the most unnecessary question of all off her list, "Age or DoB". I notice many recruiters are now asking for proof of entitlement to be in the EU/UK, via a scanned copy of the passport. And what do we see on that particular page of the passport? Yep, Date of Birth. British industry is still hopelessly age prejudiced despite what the law says. The ever vigilant HR profession will see to it that only Degree holders and under 35's are presented for interview. Such a waste of talent and experience when one considers just how many job vacancies there are, and how many over 35's are excluded from consideration.
Now a sort of anecdote. I did a presentation for the IT folks of one the Hedge Fund groups of a major bank in Canary Wharf. I stood in front of a sea of young faces, so decided to begin by asking one question, "Who can describe to me the meaning of defensive coding and give an example in your bank where this applies"? Silence reigned supreme. Somewhile later one of their talented youngsters ran a database job twice and corrupted the entire investment portfolio database. There was no message to say "This job has already be run, are you sure you wish to continue?", a positive response would then generate "Requires Supervisor override" forcing the individual to get higher level approval. This is a simple example of defensive coding and is probably well known to experienced folks, such as our Roger for instance.
I cannot put a cost on this incident, but a major bank losing its investment portfolio for just short of five days, the time it took to fix the database, must have run into tens/hundreds of thousands of pounds. All for the sake of HR maintaining a policy of "under 35's and Graduates only".
Finally, living and working in Africa for the last two years plus, it was refreshing to see people being valued for their experience rather than just academic bits of paper. The African employer values those who have been around the block a bit. I'd like to see that take hold here, but I doubt I ever will.
Guest 643- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,321
5 February 2010
19:5439720My two youngest sons went to school in Dover. One went to Astor the other to DGSB. They have both done well with jobs, one went on to uni and got a degree and is now working at Christchurch university, the other left school at 16 and worked in a backstreet garage to begin with and is now a top fitter at a big garage chain. Both are happy in their work and both got darn good education from their respective schools.
I agree that if the child/young adult is determined to do well then they will - it matters not if they come from "posh" families. We've been through hard times in the past too but where there's a will there's a way, as Ed said.
There's always a little truth behind every "Just kidding", a little emotion behind every "I don't care" and a little pain behind every "I'm ok".
5 February 2010
20:4139724Keith, that is total trash again nice to know where you stand is that why your boy went to grammer then beacause your wealthy or maybe that you at the time used your cllr status he got in ? or maybe god forbid he was intelligent to pass the entry test. We wont make assumptions that your beloved children dared eat a tescos value chicken nugget! sadly many families arent as lucky to have tons in the bank yet from loving happy families they exceed to bright children.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
5 February 2010
20:4639725melissa
councillors have no such influence over entry into schools.
5 February 2010
20:5039726Howard, never can tell with keith. i would rather trust john terry with a married woman what i would a labour cllr!
Guest 643- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,321
5 February 2010
21:1139730Melissa -
Totally agree with you
There's always a little truth behind every "Just kidding", a little emotion behind every "I don't care" and a little pain behind every "I'm ok".
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
5 February 2010
21:2339732getting a bit unpleasant now.
i only know two current labour councillors, john goodwin and sheila amos, to me they are totally trustworthy.
keith, for all his faults!! is honest as the day is long, i am sure that i can think of others too, given time.