Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
12 February 2010
10:1440390#1
Newspaper, MI5 deny cover up.... why bother? ........
MI5 are supposed to keep secrets, they are supposed to ensure the security of the State and that means doing some dirty nasty things. I would be worried if they did not.
Do I care if they are 'complicate in torture' of some muslim terrorist? I hope they do tear such monsters apart to get information on plots against us, its their job.
So called 'liberal' commentators claim that torture dont work - frankly thats nonsense. Besides there is torture and then there is torture. The old fashioned thumb screws until they confess is no good, but there are ways of interogating that do work now classed by some as torture. What is the problem with sensory deprivation, being shouted at, slapped around a bit - these terrorists deserve it.
Court cases such as we have just seen make us look weak and vulnerable. It encourages our enemies to greater efforts as a result. We should shut up and let our security forces do what is needed.
12 February 2010
16:3740407#2
A large part of me agrees with some of what you say: there is a price worth paying for the protection of my family. However, it cuts both ways - who will protest if someone in my family is accused of something and "slapped about a bit" despite their innocence? I am Irish - I know people who were as innocent as it is possible to be of any wrongdoing who were, nevertheless, "slapped about a bit" because they fit the profile.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
12 February 2010
17:3040410#3
I would hope and expect their to be more safeguards and conditions than just fitting a profile. I am not saying that the security services should be given a totally free reign, if we did we would be on the verge of a totalitarian state, but we have gone too far in the other direction and are a soft touch.
Guest 644- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,214
12 February 2010
19:0240425#4
Hmmm....Dr David Kelly was not wearing gloves yet there were no fingerprints on the knife he allegedly used to 'commit suicide' with. Three members of MI5 were at his house shortly before his body was discovered and his computer mysteriously disappeared containing his unfinished book. Hmmm...
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
12 February 2010
19:4040428#5
there is no place for torture,i disagree totally with blue barry here.
when people have been deprived of sleep they will say anything.
what happened to compiling evidence and using clever interview techniques?
also
what happened to being innocent until proved guilty?
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,709
12 February 2010
20:0940432#6
I agree Howard
Just because we do not like someone or some group of people does not give us the right to condone torture. It is after all the thin end of the wedge on the route to totalitarianism.
Pastor Neumann anybody?
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
12 February 2010
20:1240434#7
Remember those poor guys the Birmingham six. They were forced to go without sleep and told their families were being beaten - of course they "confessed". I would, and I expect you would too. 16 long years in prison, one died in there leaving another without a Father. Outrageous and unforgivable.
12 February 2010
21:2040437#8
Almost as unforgiveable as blowing innocent people up. When there is war there are casualties, and sadly, sometimes the innocent are the ones who get hurt, on both sides.
As for torture, I am 100% against it, just cut off their heads and send them back.
12 February 2010
21:5940445#9
Are you trying to imply that the Birmingham Six blew people up? They did not, and they dod not support those who did - they just got blamed for it because they were Irish and the police wanted a quick win. That is where torture gets you. the people who actually did blow people up are still out there.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
12 February 2010
22:1640447#10
The law says they were innocent Bern beyond that I make no comment.....
I was actually in Birmingham then and it was the last night of the course I was on. We decided by a toss of a coin whether to go into the City Centre to have a drink at the Talk of the Town or to stay local in Erdington. We stayed in Erdington and when we got back to the digs the landlady was going mad with worry......
I despise the hollier than thou attitudes that leave us looking pathetic to our enemies. They would think of nothing of using real torture and I do mean ripping off fingernail stuff and worse while we tie our security forces arms behind their backs. Nothing wrong with tough interrogation method such as sleep deprivation, it reduces the will to resist.
Tell me, if MI5 had firm intelligence of a nuclear dirty bomb being planted in Dover and had someone in custody who they were convinced knew where that bomb was, would you still keep your scruples Ross or will you be cheering on MI5 to get the location by any method they thought appropriate. I know my answer and that would include the ripping out of fingernails if needed.
Guest 641- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 2,335
12 February 2010
23:0440451#11
The Birmingham Six were innocent, Bern is right
, they were used as scapegoats because they were Irish and the government at the time wanted a tidy decision and to quickly sweep it under the carpet, 16 years spent in prison innocent of all charges is an extremely long time, unforgiveable.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
12 February 2010
23:1140453#12
sounds like you are being a bit political barry, are you allowed an opinion on such things?
before you know it you could be referring to modern buildings as carbuncles.
12 February 2010
23:3840458#13
Bern, I made no such implication, I think you are being a bit sensitive to my words. What I did say was that in time of war the innocent get hurt, and they lost 16 years of their lives while other innocents lost all their lives. We shouldn't mention one group of victims and exclude the other.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
13 February 2010
00:1340460#14
The Egyptian guy held in Guantanimo who is raising this MI5/torture story is now suing MI5.
Why did we bring this guy back to Britain ? he wasn't even a British subject, just happened to be living here before going off to fight against us.
What right has he to grumble at our Country ?
He came here from Egypt, lived here for a while, went to Pakistan, trained with Al Quaida and was caught by the Americans and shipped to Cuba - what has this got to do with Britain ?
We must be mad. Why wasn't he taken to Egypt ?
Roger
Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,709
13 February 2010
00:2440461#15
Barry - yes
Sid - how do you fight a war on terror? surely by inference those seeking to create terror have then won? Or are we just doing their job for them by the reaction of our security forces, media and politicians?
Roger - of course he should have been repatriated to Egypt. Was he ever found guilty in a court of law of anything? Or was this just another dubious fishing trip by the CIA that MI5 turned a blind eye to?
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Alec Sheldon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 18 Aug 2008
- Posts: 1,037
13 February 2010
02:0340463#16
I think that you will find that he came from Ethiopia and not Egypt.
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
13 February 2010
03:0540468#17
I remember years ago when we used to get all our self assembly furniture from Mi5.
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
13 February 2010
08:2940471#18
O.K. Sorry Alec, Ethiopa - thanks for the correction.
The principle's the same though; he just lived here for a while, why did we get involved ?
I'm sure Spain, France, Germany or any other European country, wouldn't worry about someone just because they were temporarily living in their country - madness and costly
Roger
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
13 February 2010
09:1140472#19
Yes to which, Ross, cheering on MI5 to get the information by any means they can or to let Dover be destroyed by a nuclear dirty bomb?
13 February 2010
09:2540475#20
Ross, don't know the answer to your question or why you would ask me. However, it seems to me the best way to avoid a war on terror is not invade/attack someone else's country. Ireland for the Irish and all that.