Sarah, I think the difference is that this now makes it illegal to incorporate it into council stuff. Illegal! That is where the rub lies. The guy in question was always able to come in slightly late to miss the prayers.
Howard, as a Catholic in a very CofE school for a short while, we also had to traipse in after "prayers" had finished in case we uttered some Popish nonsense and sent everyone to Hell, but it was just a minor inconvenience. the worst bit was that the other pupils could look up our skirts as we filed in on the raised dias. It was, needless to say, a girls grammar............
#14 - only tea at that point, but a lovely robust red is now lying waiting in the glass...........
Cheers Bern I understand that and I personally dont think it should be part of the official council business , I think prayers before a meeting that people can attend rather than a formal summoning to attend even if a person dosnt want to is fine .
But we are all different and will have differing views .
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,895
I must admit I fail to see the need for prayers before, during or after a meeting but each to their own as I am not at all religious. I wonder how much this pointless case cost the ratepayers.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
thankfully not the tax payer on this one jan.
this was funded by the "national secular society", much the same as "the lords day observance society" but in reverse.
each tries to tell us all what to do without actually having a mandate to do so.
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,895
So the National Secular Society paid the costs of both sides isn't that rather unusual.
Yes both lots as bad as each other.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Guest 686- Registered: 5 May 2009
- Posts: 556
What a load of tosh! I heard some of the discussion on the radio today and wondered if it was 1st April already! This should have been thrown out of court.
England has been a Christian society for centuries. Why should that need to change just to suit a very small minority of idiots?
Phil West
If at first you don't succeed, use a BIGGER hammer!!
Alec Sheldon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 18 Aug 2008
- Posts: 1,037
In my Manchester school in 1945/50 there were lots of Jewish kids who, at assembly, had their own prayers in a big classroom conducted by a Rabbi.
Guest 725- Registered: 7 Oct 2011
- Posts: 1,418
I hope and pray that prayers are said at the next council meeting that they all pray to the good Lord for the removal of the giant telly in the market square. Somehow I don't think the good Lord above will be listening. In fact he's probably laughing his long beard off.
Alec Sheldon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 18 Aug 2008
- Posts: 1,037
Philip, you managed not to mention wind turbines in your last post. You must be mellowing.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Sarah, as you state in post 22, so it was. Now it is illegal. The prayers were held before the meetings, and were not part of the council agenda. Now these prayers before the council meetings are illegal.
The devil is in the detail, that is how this court case was handled and the sentence issued.
A month or two back Dave PM had made a speech about upholding Christian values in Britain, this is where it has led to. Gulag22, just numbers in striped pygamas. Out of sheer intolerance towards people who meet in prayer before a meeting.
But then, more churches have been ripped down in Britain, or "converted", since 1953, than in 70 years of communism in Russia.
Guest 725- Registered: 7 Oct 2011
- Posts: 1,418
Alec, the two go together. You know religion and alternative energy but I thought it prudent not to mention that fact seeing as I am an atheist on both faiths.
I didn't know that some councils held a prayer service before meetings. I have to say that it's a ridiculous idea. It has nothing to do with freedom, liberty and the end of the world as we know it in this country. I'll bet that it's a Victorian invention (though I really don't know) and far from being quaint I'd say it was positively antiquated.
Those who say that the UK is a Christian society had better check Church attendance figures to see exactly how Christian we really are.
The fastest growing religion in this country is reality telly and shows like the X-factor.
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,895
Having thought about it a little more, it would depend what prayers were said taking into account all religions and beliefs they should not be at all religious. Prayers are impossible to an atheist so I guess they should not be part of the official proceedings.
That said it was daft the argument ended up in court as common sense looses out yet again.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Indeed, Jan, and that sums it up, really.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
What happened to tolerance?
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Buried under the stampede to reveal equality where none exists........
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Jan, the Our Father is the same for all Christians. In the case mentioned, I don't think there was any hint of people of different religion, so the prayers must have been Christian. Other religions simply did not come into that court case.
So it is necessary, in such a procedure, to keep to the facts presented to the court. It was not a Muslim or a Hindu who brought a case against Christian prayers, but a British atheist. Personally I have never heard of Muslims or Hindus or Jews taking any pleasure in British atheists speaking out against Christianity in Britain "in the name of different religions".
Atheists often play the "intolerance card towards other religions", when making their case against Christian customs, but in reality, they are only venting their own personal hatred of ALL religions and forms of faith in God.
You will find, Jan, that in such cases where people of different religions, and by this I mean Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Bhudists, do associate, they will ALWAYS work out an agreement that each group say their own prayers in their own time and without hindrance.
Any Muslim, or Jew, or person of any other religion, knows full well that once an atheist bans Christianity, they will next ban Islam, and the Sabbath, and all Hindu and Bhudist forms of worship.
As for prayers that are not religious, that is, have nothing to do with a faith in God, they simply do not exist, never have, and never will.
But I think the point was, that these prayers were prior to the official proceedings, and that any council member attending the meeting was not obliged to attend the prayers.
But the argument did end up in court, and ended up with a sentence that now shall be used nationwide to make prayers illegal.
It starts in councils, but may soon be spread to all schools, and to any form of public celebration.
There's only one thing, though, Jan. Such a law, in order not to be racially discriminatory, MUST then be applied to ALL religions. And that is when you will see people of ALL forms of faith in God unite to protest.
So hopefully this absurd court ruling will be overturned, and Parliament will make a precise law that bans atheists from venting their hatred on people who pray to God.
Guest 725- Registered: 7 Oct 2011
- Posts: 1,418
..."So hopefully this absurd court ruling will be overturned, and Parliament will make a precise law that bans atheists from venting their hatred on people who pray to God."
Are you sure you really mean that? Banning free speech in favour of a belief in rather questionable faith based religious systems? Surely not!
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,895
Phillip I agree free speech is vital in nine out of ten of cases, the other one case that should be stopped being those who preach intolerance of any kind.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
i think that alex is referring to the relatively new phenomenon of aggressive atheism.
in the past non believers got persecuted now the tables are turned.
speaking as someone that is not clever enough to decide whether there is a god or an afterlife i try to show respect to people that have more certainties.
Indeed. And persecution of anyone has to be wrong, doesn't it?
