howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#1
after reading the various comments about markets on here, i decided to pop over to folkestone earlier to see how their one was faring.
roger would have a pink fit if he saw it, no stripey awnings, no shape or style to it - more like a boot sale where many people had emptied their attics.
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
#2
I remember the days (not that long ago) when the market was huge, just like the one at Dumpton Dog Track in Ramsgate !
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 745- Registered: 27 Mar 2012
- Posts: 3,370
#3
So what happened to Dhans millions in investment ?
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#4
he has certainly pumped enough money in, doubt that a market would get funding from him though.
this lovely refurbished crescent overlooks the derelict seafront and sad looking market.
Guest 670- Registered: 23 Apr 2008
- Posts: 573
#5
The pictures are in fact showing the weekly Sunday Boot Fair, the actual market is held in the precinct Thursday and Saturday and is very busy.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#6
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
#7
Ours could be a market to be proud of and of great benefit to the Town and businesses if the appropriate people would only listen; I fear that won't be the case though.
Roger
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
#8
never mind roger,one day they will wake up and smell the coffee.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
#9
Maybe Brian, but by then there will have been two failed markets and it won't be third time lucky, as no one will want to touch it - and all because people who don't know how to run a market, insist they know better.
Roger
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
#10
De Haan has pumped millions into Folkestone but that just proves that money isn't the magic cure that Dover imagines it to be. You can lead a horse to water but.........you know the rest.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 714- Registered: 14 Apr 2011
- Posts: 2,594
#11
Roger, I notice you're banging the market drum on two threads, to be honest its starting to come across as though you're sulking, when the reality is you are simply refusing to face the financial facts.
As I pointed out to you last week, the Town Team is endeavouring to start a weekly market with very limited resources; if you could answer these questions, which I have asked you a couple of times previously, it might help everybody.
The market manager - where would one be found and who would be involved in the recruitment process?
Who would fund this?
Who would the manager report to and where would he be based? Who would employ him?
The market stalls, you think 12 is inadequate - how would you fund the purchase of, lets say, 30, and where would they be stored?
How would the market be advertised and marketed?
If a profit were made what would happen to the market and who would administer it? Similarly if it lost money who would underwrite the loss?
The business plan you have prepared is not actually a plan, its a dream, which as I said last week would require Year 1 funding in the region of £60k, yet you have no specifics at all as to where this would come from. You are a District Councillor, does DDC have funds available? And if so why haven't they been untilised previously?
Roger, I'm sorry to appear confrontational but you are condemning the efforts of others who are putting in a lot of time and effort voluntarily, whilst waving around a completely uncosted and unfunded Business Plan.
If you have a plan to raise £60k to fund your plans, please accept my invitation on behalf of the Town Team to come along to a meeting and present your case, I can assure you it will be met with a very positive response. On the other hand, if you have some vague notion about a market manager, 30 market stalls and local advertising without a penny in funding I suggest you have a re-think.
Guest 670- Registered: 23 Apr 2008
- Posts: 573
#12
Why is it necessary to purchase stalls when, most stallholders have their own?
The Market Manager would surely not be full-time and could be paid on a results basis ie £3.00 per stall, if the market through his experience grows, the number of £3.00 would grow giving him an incentive to make it successful. The manager does not have to be employed full-time but only on the days the market operates, in any event it wouldn't matter as he is being paid on results. It is an ideal position for a senior citizen or a person on a low income who is able to take
If you think outside the box maybe it could be done, ask Shepway they appear to have cracked it but then they have positive thinking Councillors not negative thinkers as in post #11.
Guest 714- Registered: 14 Apr 2011
- Posts: 2,594
#13
Dave1, I would like to extend the invitation I sent out to Roger to yourself. Please come along to a Town Team meeting, we meet every monday at 5.30, and present your ideas to us. I can assure you that if you have ideas that could save/make money we are very interested to hear them.
In addition, you may find that not all Town Team members are as negative as me.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#14
i thought it was only people running a business that could attend david, am i mistaken?
Guest 714- Registered: 14 Apr 2011
- Posts: 2,594
#15
Not in the slightest Howard, we are delighted to hear from anybody who thinks they can contribute. Obviously we cant accommodate large numbers at every meeting but if, for example, Roger or Dave1 would like to come along we will itemise that on the Agenda and we'll be pleased to hear of any suggestions or ideas.
The team is "business led" which was an original stipulation, but if people feel they have something to offer we want to hear from them, in fact we are encouraging people to come forward.
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,948
#16
glad not just me thinks roger has an agenda on markets
chamber already decided
folkestone market is in precinct and popular
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
#17
David I'm sorry you think I am sulking - absolutely nothing of the kind, not at all.
This is a long reply, please stick with it.
It has nothing to do with refusing to face the facts, I'm afraid your costings are completely wrong and out of kilter and all based on an utterly false premis.
As Dave1 said, you don't buy new stalls for stall-holders, they all have their own, you don't have to worry about storing them either as they bring them and take them away too.
Let's list your questions David:
1) Roger, I notice you're banging the market drum on two threads, to be honest its starting to come across as though you're sulking, when the reality is you are simply refusing to face the financial facts.
Answer: already answered above.
2) As I pointed out to you last week, the Town Team is endeavouring to start a weekly market with very limited resources; if you could answer these questions, which I have asked you a couple of times previously, it might help everybody.
Answer: If Louise had responded to the guy I think would be best to run the market (he emailed her but received no reply), you would have started it by now and know how to as well - without spending large sums of money.
3) The market manager - where would one be found and who would be involved in the recruitment process ?
Answer: You don't need a recruitment process, this chap has been doing it for 7 years, there's nothing you can teach him about running a street market. I'll send you his email address and mobile phone number.
The Town Council, Town Team and District Council do not know how to run a market, but this guy does, don't waste money unnecessarily.
4) Who would fund this?
Answer: It would fund itself, the stall-holders have their own stalls, even Farmers-Market people have their own stalls and if you do need any for new entrepreneurs who want to try their hands at it, second-hand ones can be bought quite cheap and they can be rented out to them.
As the money starts to come in from the stall-holders there'll be money to spend on advertising the market, perhaps the KOS papers on Saturday and Sunday, this would attract people from around Kent, not just around Dover.
5) Who would the manager report to and where would he be based? Who would employ him ?
Answer: He would report to the appointed Town-Team representative. I have said in my paper, that the Town-Team set up a body to be the responsible body for it; after you have paid the market manager his money, or he takes his money from that received from the stall-holders and then it is banked. The necessary paper-work will be done by him and copies given to the Town Team and the District Council. It would be a part-time job, from around 08.00 to probably around 17.00. It won't be a PAYE job.
I thought I read that the District Council are giving you rent-free, the old George Locke premises in the Market Square; if so, he could be based there, but he would be out and about with between 30 and 40 stalls to look after, he'll be quite busy.
6) The market stalls, you think 12 is inadequate - how would you fund the purchase of, lets say, 30, and where would they be stored?
Answer: you don't pay for stalls, the stall-holders already have their own; they bring them and take them away, so you don't have to worry about storing them.
You may want to buy a few second hand ones for people who haven't run a stall before and want to try it, but you can buy them cheap and rent them out for a reasonable fee - reasonable, so it is still worth it to them.
7) How would the market be advertised and marketed ?
Answer: Banners, newspaper advertising - local and Kent wide. You could also advertise in one or both of the Associations that look after market traders - one has a weekly paper and the other has a monthy magazine.
When I first started this initiative with Cameron MacSwween and the Dover Chamber, I had costed advertsing in their publications and the KOS papers and had approached DTC, DDC and KCC for funding. Each one had pledged £890, but because I was dismissed before it could be done, the money never got paid out (as far as I am aware).
8) If a profit were made what would happen to the market and who would administer it?
Answer: A profit would/will be made; stall-holders pay; money banked; manager paid, Veolia paid to take away the rubbish generated and the residue shared between the Town-Team (for the benefit of future projects that will benefit Dover) and the Distict Council and the paperwork completed by the market manager. Not sure what you mean by "what would happen to the market" ?
9) Similarly if it lost money who would underwrite the loss?
Answer: What loss ?
10) The business plan you have prepared is not actually a plan, its a dream, which as I said last week would require Year 1 funding in the region of £60k, yet you have no specifics at all as to where this would come from. You are a District Councillor, does DDC have funds available? And if so why haven't they been untilised previously?
Answer: I haven't drawn up a Business Plan at all, I have never pushed it as a Business Plan - it is a discussion paper; I'm sure you know what a Business Plan looks like.
£60,000 is absolute nonsense, a ridiculous sum and I have no idea why you scare people with that sort of talk. With all due respect David - and I mean that, you/the Town-Team have shown that you know nothing of how to run a market; I ask you, please listen to those who know and the chap who contacted Louise earlier in the year and received no response, is the guy you must talk to - he knows much more than me.
DDC do not have any funds for this and none are needed; there will I'm sure be some pre-market launch work, like going round to the various other street-markets and farmers-
markets, but this will be done by the Market Manager, but that payment will come from income generated by the market stall-holders.
11) Roger, I'm sorry to appear confrontational but you are condemning the efforts of others who are putting in a lot of time and effort voluntarily, whilst waving around a completely uncosted and unfunded Business Plan.
Answer: Yes you do appear (unnecessarily) confrontational David; I am not condemning other peoples efforts, but you are all barking up the wrong tree because, none of you know anything about markets or how to run them - and you don't need to know either, but you must listen to those who do.
As I said earlier, it is NOT a business Plan, The new Market Manager will make up one of those.
12) If you have a plan to raise £60k to fund your plans, please accept my invitation on behalf of the Town Team to come along to a meeting and present your case, I can assure you it will be met with a very positive response. Answer: I don't have a plan to raise £60,000 because it is totally unnecessary to do so.
Your last sentence above - "On the other hand, if you have some vague notion about a market manager, 30 market stalls and local advertising without a penny in funding I suggest you have a re-think", has been answered in the previous paragraphs.
Roger
PS: Keith, don't make inane comments you know nothing about.
Guest 725- Registered: 7 Oct 2011
- Posts: 1,418
#18
Am I missing something? How can you have a successful market in such a confined space as the market square with the stupid giant telly in place? It's ridiculous frankly.
I guess it highlights the shortsightedness of the powers that be. A confused policy making it up as they go along. Undynamic and weird.
you couldn't make this stuff up.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
#19
It wouldn't/couldn't be just in the Market Square Philip, it would be up Cannon Street and Biggin Street too.
Roger
Guest 714- Registered: 14 Apr 2011
- Posts: 2,594
#20
Phillip, it appears you are the one making things up.
Roger, I have sent you an email
