Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
23 January 2009
20:0313652#1
Just recieved this:
Clause 152 of the Coroners and Justice Bill, due for its first debate in the Commons on Monday 26th January, would convert the Data Protection Act into its exact opposite. It would allow ministers to make 'Information Sharing Orders', that can alter any Act of Parliament and cancel all rules of confidentiality in order to allow information obtained for one purpose to be used for another.
This single clause is as grave a threat to privacy as the entire ID Scheme.
Combine it with the index to your life formed by the planned National Identity Register and everything recorded about you anywhere could be accessible to any official body.
Quite apart from the powers in the Identity Cards Act, if Information Sharing Orders come to pass, they could (for example) immediately be used to suck up material such as tax records or electoral registers to build an early version of the National Identity Register.
But the powers would apply to any information, not just official information. They would permit data trafficking between government agencies and private companies - and even with foreign governments.
How do those who feel that 'if you have nothing to hide there is no problem" feel now?
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
24 January 2009
08:4513698#2
It's the identity theft aspect that scares me - there's always clever crooks working out something to screw you - a bit like the Government really.
Roger
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
24 January 2009
09:0513700#3
Guys check out the new feature just gone up this minute on frontpage.
Its a well done to the HMRC. Makes you rethink perhaps about IDCards.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
24 January 2009
11:0613711#4
ID Cards will not prevent it. The criminal will find a way make no mistake.
Guest 673- Registered: 16 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,388
24 January 2009
12:3913712#5
It will certainly make things a great deal easier for criminals. Once upon a time, it would have taken a whole town full of offices packed with filing cabinets to store the nations details. Now the entire nations details can be stored on a single laptop or DVD which somebody, against all the rules, will inevitably take home with them and manage to leave on the train.
Nigerians are as concerned about the potential loss of the details of the entire British nation as we are. I have received an email from Chief Mbongo in Lagos inviting contributions to a fighting fund he is setting up. He asks that all members of Dover Forum send the largest cheque they can possibly afford to P.O. Box 3156, Lagos, Nigeria. Together we can fight this.
Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
24 January 2009
12:5413713#6
Chris
I feel no different , I have nothing to hide so have no fear of ID Cards
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
24 January 2009
13:0113714#7
So Gary - you believe that we will always have benign Governments and that we are somehow special and immune to potential Hitlers and Stalins.
You are happy for all your personal information to be collected and stored in one central place, you are happy to have Government plot your movements.
You are happy to create a monster that one day could manage the way we speak, think and live our lives.
Not me. I have nothing to hide but I want no part of the monster that is being created.
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,709
24 January 2009
13:1413715#8
Wow I agree with Barry!
ID cards do not stop criminals, terrorists or illegal migrants; if they did the rest of Europe would be crime, migrant and terror free and it is not.
the record of the Civil Service in delivering secure IT facilities far less IT systems that actually work is utterly appalling, so why on earth would we want to trust all out details to a single database?
Our whole legal system has historically been based on the premise that the accuser/state must prove that I am not who I say I am rather than the other way round, coupled with the premise that I am innocent until you prove otherwise. We must not allow these principles to be undermined by ID cards ot information sharing orders or any other hair brained scheme that this or any other government comes up with in the name of fighting the "war on terror".
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
24 January 2009
13:4213717#9
I'm with BarryW and Ross - we haven't been asked to buy into any War on Terror strategies, which are at bottom a peg on which to hang exactly this, a direct and legal way to interfere and put individuals at risk.
Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
24 January 2009
15:2513725#10
BarryW,
I keep saying I am happy to carry an ID Card, most of the reasons you keep giving against them is already happening, the rest, in my view is way over the top and have no proof they would happen if cards were introduced.
Ross.
Is this the same legal system that finds loopholes for paedophiles to be found not guilty even when they are? You don't abandon victims of crimes because civil servants can't do their jobs properly; surely you make sure, they do, do their jobs properly.
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
24 January 2009
15:5813732#11
i would refuse to apply for one as i consider that they are unessary incombance.
Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,709
24 January 2009
16:0213734#12
Gary just because the legal system does have faults does not mean you turf out centuries of tradition that generally works and replace it with diminished rights for all.
Loopholes are there because legislation is badly drafted, too often in a rush, as some sort of knee jerk reaction to perceived public concern. Loopholes also occur because the CPS are poor, the police too often skimp on evidence gathering and some judges are just perverse in their interpretation of the relevant statute.
Therefore what we need to do is
a) review the whole body of current legislation
b) repeal acts that are no longer relevant
c) repeal acts that are contradictory or contrary
d) review tariffs and set these to levels that genuinely reflect the severity of the crime and get the right balance between crimes against the person and crimes against property; with the former carrying more severe tariffs.
e) review judges performance on sentencing and retire, retrain etc as required.
f)review the structure, performance and remit of the CPS and conduct a root and branch overhaul to ensure that they do their job
g) Provide updated guidance to the police on their role in gathering evidence to make sure they carry out that duty correctly
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
24 January 2009
17:2113742#13
Absolutely - if the policy or protocol doesn't work, it doesn't mean the whole thing is wrong, just that it needs tweaking, and people need to use it effectively.
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
24 January 2009
17:3413748#14
Gary, I fail to see how any form of ID card will ever stop lawyers exploiting legal loopholes. Ross has eloquantly pointed out the steps needed to make such things harder. As to your assertion that BarryW is 'going over the top', we have all seen too often how quickly knee jerk laws are put in place and how easily they can infringe on civil liberties, imagine that with the vast store of information being sought and it is not a pretty picture. It will be the inocent that suffer because the guilty will have found ways around it beforehand.
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
24 January 2009
20:4813761#15
Ross,
Brilliant, I totally agree and support all 7 of your ideas, common sense answers that should be implemented.
I did not attack all the legal system; my point was more specific than that.
I don't think I said or meant to say that ID Cards would solve loopholes of course they won't.
I just feel we need to give ID Cards a try, can you honestly not see any benefits to them at all?
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
24 January 2009
21:5213762#16
I think we should have I.D.CARDS, there would be lots of benefits, and also would help stop the ones who are geting cash benefits when they should not and that is just one of the benefits of I.D.cards, and claiming benefits when they are working, most times you have to show I.D.cards anyway, i have about four on me all the time I can not get on any big building sites now with out I.D. bus pass, BQ card there are lots of them so if we all had one good pass alot of time and cash would be saved.
vic Matcham
24 January 2009
22:0513767#17
I think ID cards would be great if only to help our Vic out
Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,709
24 January 2009
22:1213768#18
No disrespect Vic, but think about what you said. To help I have paraphrased:
We all have a number of forms of ID
We generally have to show these at various times to prove who we are
People get benefits they should not
National ID cards fix this and give lots of other unspecified benefits
Now surely if showing your ID to get your benefit stops benefit fraud and we all already have numerous forms of ID why do we need ID cards?
Surely what we need is the various agencies that dish out benefits to start rigorously checking ID
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
24 January 2009
22:2013769#19
in the same line of thinking then Ross why not one more?
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
24 January 2009
22:2013770#20
Thank you Mandie ,I do get that one it was great well done, would just like to say , you done well last year and this year with the band do not gave up, I never do well and i am still going on or trying to, i am hoping now to go around the schools to talk to the older ones about geting a good trade behind them and that still can get them a job, i have been down and had a talk with connections in london ROAD they work with the schools and they told me they will get back to me about it ,I told them I do not need any payment for doing it but I have worked over 50years now and I think I should pass some of it on to help others to do the samesame.
Vic m
