Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
7 February 2010
11:3639871#1
Whilst noting the picture of Gwyn Prosser this morning on the front page section, signing the holocaust memorial book, let`s not forget the name of Simon Wiesenthal, without whom, many of the former nazi murderer`s would have escaped justice, including Adolph Eichmann. And also remember the name of Nahum Goldmann, the head of the World Jewish Congress in the 1950s for NOT supporting Wiesenthal in his hunt for war criminals. Millions of Goldmann`s fellow jews murdered in the camps, and he didn`t want to support the one man who set out to get justice done, Simon Wiesenthal.
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
7 February 2010
11:4139873#2
Good point Colin, buit also, who represents the gypsies, twins, pregnant mothers, homosexuals and insane, who also were given the same treatment as Jews?
I personally find the constant banging of the "remember the holocaust" drum offensive while Israel behaves towards the Arabs/Palestinians the way it does. Pot and kettle in my mind.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
7 February 2010
11:4639874#3
it does sometimes seem that the israelis have not learned the lessons of persecution.
i never realised that wiesenthal never had the full support of the world jewish congress.
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
7 February 2010
11:5039875#4
Agreed Sid, and I always remember there were other`s besides the Jews, but no one after the war was even interested in the Jews, (even that Goldmann shit above), so if a gypsy or homosexual took up what Wiesenthal did, at the end of the day, it was getting justice sorted and bringing the same criminals to trial. I`ve never ventured into the Arab/Palestinian conflict Sid, so can`t comment there, except to say, it`s long overdue for sorting out once and for all.
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
Guest 641- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 2,335
7 February 2010
13:5139900#5
At least the Mossad listened to Wiesenthal (a great man), I read a few books in the eighties quoting Wiesenthal's tireless work tracking down war criminals. Good point Sid, probably the same war criminals who murdered and tortured non-jews were one of the same and were brought to justice, let us hope so.
7 February 2010
14:5939903#6
Well said Barry WS.
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
7 February 2010
15:3139906#7
Interesting, that going back to WW2, many soldiers in the far east were calling themselves, `The Forgotten Army`. Everything was centred on the war in Europe. Is the same thing still happening? As Sid above mention`s about banging the holocaust drum, I rarely see mention of the Japanese attrocities, and not many of them were ever caught, though admittedly, they all look the same. Many died in death camps there and through grueling marches. Little yellow bastards still don`t teach or acknowledge their war roll as I last understood?
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
7 February 2010
16:2039910#8
Can of worms there, Colin............but a conversation worth having.
7 February 2010
18:4039920#9
At the end of the day WWII was over 60 years ago and I think it is time to bury the past and move on. The wounds need to be healed after all this time, but, I suspect it suits the political ambitions of Israel and its supporters to keep the holocaust on the table.
Israel has right exist, but so does Palestine. It really is time everyone put their minds to solving that problem now before the Hashemites and others start to claim their rightful lands too. That would mean a never ending trail of negotiations and no solutions.
The Japanese position still rankles, but what about the indiscriminate bombing of Vietnam by the Yanks? What about British tretment of the Boers in the first evert concentration camps. Imagine if the Spanish wanted France back, after all, they were pushed out about 1500 years ago. Where would it all end.
Much easier to draw a line and not go back.
Guest 670- Registered: 23 Apr 2008
- Posts: 573
7 February 2010
19:0839927#10
The British have much to answer for our treatment of the Boers. Hitler got many ideas from us. We brought to the world the words concentration camp where many Boers died as a result of disease through the unsanitary conditions. We also had a scorched earth policy where everything was raised to the ground to prevent the Boers returning to their homes and land.
I agree that it is time to move on and although we should not forget the horrors of WW2, we should perhaps, especially here in Dover concentrate less on new war memorials and more on integrating the past with our future. The future is in creating better understanding between people, something our youth seems to embrace, this in itself will reduce the posibility of a third world war after which there would be no future.
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
7 February 2010
19:1939928#11
We do have a bloody history Dave, and much on our own doorstep.
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
7 February 2010
20:1539936#12
since the original holocaust we have had two bigger ones with pol pot in cambodia and joe stalin in the old soviet union, plus similar but much smaller efforts in places like bosnia and rwanda, must be others that i have forgotten about.
it is all well and good talking about educating people, there will always be the evil ones that have a grudge and enough supporters to slaughter the innocent.
7 February 2010
20:2139937#13
It is not time to "move on". This is and was not a bit of an upset which can be solved with a bit of counselling and a damp shoulder. Those other atrocities serve to underline exactly how much we have learned - not - and how important it is to have on the shelf in the back of our minds the fact that people can be vile and we need to have good men and women leading us, and good men and women raising difficult questions in order for that to happen. Moving on is not an option, keeping memories alive can prevent or de-rail even more evil from occuring. Drawing a line will never be adequate, either as a method of prevention or as a means of honouring so many who died because people failed to stop it. All the people - not solely the Jews in the Holocaust, but all the other people who have died as the result of meglomania and human weakness.
7 February 2010
20:3739939#14
Bern, you've pretty much said exactly what I was coming on to say. The Holocaust of WWII has come to symbolize the scope of inhumanity that is possible. By placing the Jewish Holocaust in such high profile we don't get to ignore other people's plights but rather obtain a heightened sense of them thanks to the impact of this event. The very fact that the Jewish Holocaust has sparked off debates about Boers, Pol Pot etc is proof of this. This is an event that we, as a race (the "human" race I mean) can never "move on" from. To do so would mean that we've grown comfortable with the reality of those events and that is one thing that can never, MUST never, happen.
I'm sure there are individuals or groups out there who use the Holocaust to bolster their own current agenda just as there are those out there who deny it ever happened. But the documentary evidence is there. And I can say from my own personal viewpoint that the history lessons and constant reminder of the Jewish Holocaust has made me aware of many other plights in history, including more recent ones. Exactly what can be done to avoid it ever happening again I don't know, maybe there's nothing anyone can do to stop the power of human evil marching onwards in this way.
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
7 February 2010
21:2239949#15
I`ve never been an advocate of forgive and forget, and all the time the guilty one`s are within the age limit, be it 100 years old even, they must be hunted down, and never mind the `oh dear he`s 80 years old and got a bad heart` brigade, the one`s that evil person killed haven`t even got a life.
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
7 February 2010
22:1039955#16
I would just like to echo Rick's sentiments.....
8 February 2010
01:1539958#17
Bern/Rick I understand where you're coming from, but all the remembering didn't stop the Sudanese/Congolese/Iranians/Iraqis/Turks/Serbs/Croats/Bosians etc., and we were just as slow in dealing with those new horrors as we were with all the old ones.
It simply does not stop atrociites by remembering the holocaust, history proves this time and again, and I still wonder how much is now just Israeli/Jewish propaganda to deflect our sympathies away from the Palestinian question.
I don't seek to deny what happened before, or lessen the horror, but we need to open our eyes and try to find a different way to deal with deranged dictators. Preferably one that works a bit better than thus far.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
8 February 2010
08:0539969#18
Whether it's the Jewish Holocaust, or the other wars where genocide has been allowed to happen, it is the fact that evil triumphs when good men do nothing and the United Nations, as a body of supposed good men, have done very little if anything at all, to stop any of it.
This body needs balls (and a mandate), balls enough to go where needed to stop it, where ever it might be.
A massive "police force" that can easily go in where ever necessary - a rapid deployment task force, before the genocide starts.
Roger
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
8 February 2010
10:2039976#19
I`ve never had any respect for the United Nations, and whilst they have some good points, their record is appalling for sorting out world problems. Reminds me of the Brussel`s lot, sitting round with headphones on, all full of self importance. Anyway, not my subject so.................. P.S. With you 100% Roger, needs 24 hour action, not month`s or years!
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
8 February 2010
12:5939993#20
Sid - sitting around remembering stuff clearly won't make a difference, but as Rick points out, we are now, right now, talking about the Holocaust and those other atrocities, and those conversations are the building blocks to action. We have corporately failed to stop many other atrocities, that doesn't mean we should roll over and stop trying, or stop talking, or stop remembering. I was reflecting the other day: Hitler published another, less well known, book after Mein Kampf. It was based around Sparta and the Spartans, who practiced a form of eugenics (mainly by simply battering other less developed races into submission before subjugating and them killing them) which hitler admired. History clearly influenced Hitler, and gave him the evidence he needed to manipulate for his own pleasure. History is there for a reason, otherwise why would we bother remembering anything? Delving back into time and examining events gives me a huge amount of insights into current societies - if we can learn from history we can change the future.