Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
27 August 2009
13:5728084#1
Daniel Hannan, the Conservative MEP who embarrassed David Cameron by attacking the National Health Service, has praised Enoch Powell, the former Cabinet minister who became notorious for his views on immigration.
The Conservative leader, who has placed great importance on changing public views of the Tories' health policies, faced calls to sack Mr Hannan earlier this month when the MEP described the NHS as a "mistake" during an American television debate.
Now he has given another interview in the United States, in which he cited Powell, the Conservative minister who was cast into the political wilderness after warning that open immigration would lead to "rivers of blood," as a major political influence.
He told reason. TV: "He was somebody who understood the importance of national democracy, who understood why you need to live in an independent country and what that meant, as well as being a free marketeer and a small government Conservative."
Tory sources said that Mr Hannan would not be disciplined over his latest remarks, as his praise for Powell had not referred to the late politician's views on immigration.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
27 August 2009
14:4828085#2
Dan praised, rightly, Enoch for his forward thinking economic positioning as being one of those who influenced Keith Joseph and, yes, for his views on Britain as an independent State.
I agree completely with him and I am sure most of the Conservative Party would also agree. We are open about being a Eurosceptic party and in that are very much in line with public thinking and we take pride in the UK economy being rescued by the kind of economic policies Powell advocated back in the early 70's.
Dan did not make any admiring comments in respect of Powell's 'rivers of blood' speech and it would be disgusting, Marek, if you joined certain disreputable muck stirrers in trying, in some way, to associate Dan (and the Conservative Party) with rascism.
Indeed, the fact is Powell was a much more complex character than the left portray and was certainly no rascist. Anyone who looks closely at Powell's career can see that. Yes he would use 'the language of the time' and that would offend the sensibilities of some today, but that is the mistake of those who transfer todays attitudes to the past.
Powell was one of our great parliamentarians and was respect across the party divide. It is a pity that some seek to sully his record based on a single speech that they dont approve of. Tony Benn, one of the idols of the left, attended Powell's funeral and he would not have done that if Powell was some kind of rabid foaming at the mouth rascist, as some like to claim of him.
Any intelligent and serious look at Powell's career will demonstrate exactly what Dan was referring to. Some may not agree with Dan's point but that is a fair and reasonable political difference.
Your final sentence merely exposes the dimwitted and ignorant journalist who must have asked a question about disciplining Dan. Sadly intelligent and thoughtful journalism is a rare beast these days.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
27 August 2009
15:5328086#3
According to a number of reports DC is none too pleased with Hannans' latest outburst but is not willing to be drawn into any discussion on the matter as Hannan was careful enough not to mention 'racism'.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
27 August 2009
16:1728088#4
Good postings lads.
Hannan is clearly a champion of diehard Conservatism. Applauded loudly by the already convicted, but what of his wider appeal? Does he have any? My feeling is that David Cameron would rather see guys like him swept under a neutering carpet. Hannan has the blue touch paper of impending disaster written all over his every comment.
I dont think the market is quite ready yet for a wide appraisel of the joys of Enoch Powell, much in the same way as the market has shunned the likes of Jim Davidson. Whether Enoch was right or not is not really the issue, its more that people wont accept it even if he was, hence my refernce to Jimbo. Im not sure what Hannan's game is lately..is it a bid for power? A step up?
We seem to be using poor ould Jim as a barometer of social acceptance.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
27 August 2009
16:3328089#5
Dan represents a large strand of opinion in the UK. The political left (maybe a vociferous 20-25% of the public) may not be 'ready' to appraise the virtues of Enoch Powell, but tough luck, the political agenda is not and must not just be determined by them. Because the BBC and much of the so called 'creative arts' are signed up to that side of the political spectrum it does get more air-time than it deserves.
The 20-25% on the right take a different view while the remainder of people could not care less.
Do not mix up the prejudices of the left with a more general social acceptance, a mistake often made by the left that highlights their inflated sense of self importance.
Marek. 'Reports' can say anything, sometimes accurate, sometimes not. I would not be surprised if DC was indeed not too well pleased, probably because of the lazy and stupid journalists asking silly questions.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
27 August 2009
16:5228092#6
I don't wish to deny Hannan his right to pick his own political heroes or talk about them in public - but he might do well to acknowledge that Powell's understanding of nationhood must be of very little use to any modern, libertarian or non-reactionary Euroscepticism today.
Certainly, no libertarian Eurosceptic could find much use for Powell's views of the essence of nationhood and national independence.
Powell is quoted as saying "Sometimes people point to the increasing proportion of immigrant offspring born in this country as if the fact contained within itself the ultimate solution. The truth is the opposite. The West Indian or Asian does not, by being born in England, become an Englishman. In law he becomes a United Kingdom citizen by birth; in fact he is a West Indian or an Asian still.
Could any "small government Conservative" ever advocate this?
So maybe its more important to listen to what Hannan didn't say rather than to what he did say. Hannanism is and will continue to be a thorn in DC's foot but it illustrates what the true blue far right still eurosceptics consider as policy.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
27 August 2009
17:2628096#7
To give, perhaps a more rounded view of Enoch Powell.
Take a look at his speech, The Water Tower in which he signalled a change in the treatment of the mentally ill. It was given in Brighton in 1961 at the National Association for Mental Health's annual conference.
Powell indicated the end of the old mental asylums and said: "There they stand, isolated, majestic, imperious, brooded over by the gigantic water-tower and chimney combined, rising unmistakable and daunting out of the countryside."
Another speech he made was about the Hola massacre in Kenya.
It happened in 1959 when 11 Mau Mau were killed for refusing to work in the camp.
Dennis Healey described Powell's speech as the greatest parliamentary speech he had ever heard.
Here is a piece: "Nor can we ourselves pick and choose where and in what parts of the world we shall use this or that kind of standard. We cannot say, 'We will have African standards in Africa, Asian standards in Asia and perhaps British standards here at home'. We have not that choice to make. We must be consistent with ourselves everywhere. All Government, all influence of man upon man, rests upon opinion. What we can do in Africa, where we still govern and where we no longer govern, depends upon the opinion which is entertained of the way in which this country acts and the way in which Englishmen act. We cannot, we dare not, in Africa of all places, fall below our own highest standards in the acceptance of responsibility."
As I say, Powell was a controversial politician who is unfairly labelled racist and was in fact and in many ways quite enlightened. This is why it is wrong to try to just blank out any kind of sensible debate about him through suggesting, as PaulB has, that we are not ready to evaluate his time in public life. To accept what PaulB said is to agree to perpetuate myths and lies.
In some ways the same can be true of someone like Churchill. He was a great man and known as our greatest Briton due to his contribution to the war effort. But he too was a complex and flawed individual who said many things in his time that would enrage today's left wing pc brigade. It is only his status as the great war leader that stops his memory from being denigrated in the same way Powell's has. I see Churchill's flaws and mistakes as a part of what went in to make him such a great man rather than detracting from his greatness.
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
27 August 2009
17:4028098#8
the rights and wrongs of enoch powells speach[s] shouldnt be taken out of context.but should be looked at and analised to compare the 50/60 and 70s view points to tdays views,with the question being should we have changed policy then would we be in the situation that we are in today or wouldnt it made any differance.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
27 August 2009
22:2428108#9
we may be losing sight of what this thread is about.
it is not about enoch powell, but a tinpot politico that craves headlines.
the sceptic tanks have taken to him, as he is ready with a "rent a statement" at a drop of a hat.
i doubt that there is much interest in his utterings here though.
Sid Pollitt
27 August 2009
22:4228111#10
Is he a self publicist and loner? I do wonder if he's just trying to make a name or whether he is part of a campaign to unseat Cameron.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
28 August 2009
05:0928112#11
Sid and howard - try doing a little research. This is not a new interview.
Dan Hannan has not given interviews since the NHS furore because he hasn't wanted to reignite the row. Journalists, egged on by Labour activists will never forgive Hannan for the devastating attack he made on Brown in the European Parliament, are going through Dan's historical interviews and turning up anything they can find.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
28 August 2009
06:5228116#12
BARRYW
Lets be clear like everyone I feel everyone has the right to say what they feel.
What we have here though is an MEP that I believe Is out of kilter with the tory party(that is of course unless Cameron is telling porkies) maybe he is !!!!
My personal view is, keep it up Hannan you doing a good job to keep the tories from getting into number 10.
On the unbiased side, I just feel whilst Hannan has strong views, its just not what the Tories need at this time, when Cameron keeps on about this MODERN tory party.
I think Hannan()if he contionues)will blow the tories chances at the election and im sure at some point Cameron will have to step in.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
28 August 2009
10:2328129#13
Keith - you and everyone else will just have to get used to there being more people in the front-line of politics who are not Party clones. The Conservatives are a Party of and for individuals and therefore more will speak out. It is logical and would be out of character if otherwise. There is a difference between that and 'division', a fine line in some cases but nevertheless there is a line. At a time when the Conservatives are very much on the rise there will be more individual views expressed, not necessarily in a disloyal way, but in a way that a more controlling party might find uncomfortable. It is the Conservative way to accomodate individualism, though there has to be a point at which an individual becomes a rebel. Dan certainly has not crossed that line and is a very constructive free thinker, the Conservatives would not be Conservatives and would be a lot poorer without people like Dan.
Look at what they say in the Times today about Dan:
"Conventionally, politicians try to avoid saying controversial things. They adhere to "the line", try to avoid embarrassment. The result is a bland discourse, and a politics delivered in code. No one says what he or she means, everyone hints at it, and tries to avoid breaking any taboos. This code is one of the things that people most dislike about politics. It excludes anyone but the insider. It leads to assumptions that ought to be questioned remaining unquestioned. It can render political debate meaningless. Take Mr Hannan's remarks about the NHS. If these are to be regarded as too outrageous to leave the lips of anyone in public life, then an entire strand of opinion goes unrepresented and the debate on healthcare is stunted." - Times editorial
Labour have a totally different philosophy based on collectivism and the big mistake you are doing is to transfer the values and collective approach onto the Conservatives - it dont work.
The good news is that there will be a lot more free thinking Conservative MPs in the new Parliament next year. Good for the country and good for the Conservatives too.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
28 August 2009
19:2528140#14
thankfully mr hannan will not be one of them, he will continue to ride the gravy train in brussels at great expense to everyone else.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
28 August 2009
21:3328151#15
One of our better and harder working MEPs, he will continue to make useful domestic policy contributions, as he did with 'Direct Democracy' and 'The Plan'.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
29 August 2009
02:1828154#16
well said howard!!!!
barryw
if thats the case on hannan why did d cameron have to jump on tv as good as apologising for hannans comments
why dont you see it barryw,
take those rose tinted glasses off im trying to help you
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
29 August 2009
08:3828161#17
That'll be the day Keith. Dan and DC disagree over the NHS, my position is more in tune with Dan, so what. We at least have sensible disagreements and accept individuals with differing viewpoints accross the centre-right spectrum within the Conservative Party, the kind of drones lacking any individual thought and ability as favoured by Labour is not what the public want.
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
29 August 2009
09:2228163#18
Is that the public as a group or as individuals?
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
29 August 2009
19:3028184#19
Barryw
As I say I have no problem with Hannan speaking out longmay he continue.
Cameron as you say is now horrified at his comments, i think this is the start of the decline of the tory party, sad realy cos theu had government in there sight, and its slipping away everytime hannan speaks.
Come on Dan speak out every day love it !!!!!
cameron's face on apologising for hannan was a picture.
what a shambles they are in
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
29 August 2009
19:3128185#20
You are dreaming Keith. Get back to reality.