Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
President Hollande was elected as a anti-austerity candidate but reality seems to have taken hold....
He is now promising to have 'the most austere budget in twenty years'. They are cutting French spending in real terms. Good for them.
But any good work they are planning there could well be undone because they are also saying that there will be 20 billion Euros of higher taxes and this will damage growth.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
I'll believe it when I see it. The key word here is Unions. The president can't even pass wind without their agreement. This is just bluster.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,706
Playing to the World Bank/IMF/Bundesbank gallery methinks
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Barry, your idea of paying less taxes is not in the real world.
France too has a national debt, something more or less like ours, and fortunately Labour and the LibDems are seeing eye to eye that you can't just go about inflicting spending cuts on the masses without seeking more taxes to balance the books.
Evidently the French government has also seen the reality, hence their decision.
Your Tory party will probably be the only one left in the Western world that only inflicts spending cuts, strangles the economy, makes us all sit here in the Ice Age and has no notion of reality on taxation.
Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,706
But
there is little or no evidence that raising the notional rate of tax actually increases government receipts, this is the point that Barry and Peter keep making
there is however a fair amount of evidence that if you set the maximum upper rate of tax around the current 40% level tax receipts (i.e. the actual money they collect) are maximised
Of course you and others of the envy brigade dont want to hear or acknowledge this
My personal preference is to see redistribution of wealth (on a modest scale) through simplification of the tax code, the introduction of a flat rate tax (say 20%) and a significant hike in the personal allowance (to say £15k) this has the added benefit of not creating a disincentive to go into work and move off benefits. I would also introduce corporation tax rules to minimise the offshoring of corporate income through clever book keeping to avoid taxation and make sure that corporation tax was paid on profits attributable to sales in the UK
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Guest 1694- Registered: 24 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,087
The wealthiest men and women in France are already moving out. The wealthiest man applied for Belgian citizenship last week and he was not alone. The threat of higher taxes on the wealthiest French Nationals is already resulting in a lower tax take as they 'off-shore' their assets and take up residence in other nearby countries with lower taxation rates. That's the reality. The French government will struggle to implement austerity measures due to the nature and militancy of labour relations and will, in conjunction with this failure, find that they are collecting significantly less tax - perfect storm for failure on both fronts in their battle against their national deficit.
Squeezing the rich until the pips squeak only results in lower tax revenue over all and the targets of the squeeze remain largely unaffected. Its us poor sods who do not have the wherewithal to move out but who work a 90 hour week to support our families and look after our elderly relatives who then get reclassified as 'wealthy' and end up making up the shortfall from our businesses and already meagre disposable income.
I'm of no particular political persuasion (I tend towards voting tactically or for the local candidate who has made the best impression, depending on how much of a mess the incumbant government is making/has made of the economy), but sensible taxation would see anyone earning £10k or less per annum taken out of the tax system, anyone earning between £10 and £45k paying 20% on all income over £10k and everyone earning more than £45k paying 40% on all income over £45k. This would most likely increase the overall tax take, there is certainly plenty of evidence that this would happen here, just as it has happenned elsewhere in the world where similar logic has been applied in conjunction with closing off agressive tax avoidance schemes.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Good posts Ross and Neil.
I would disagree with Neil only in that a simple flat rate of tax is the best way to maximise total tax take along the lines of what Ross says. Complex and tiered taxes, even when the top rate is at 40% or lower, create anomalies that can depress revenue and stifle growth. Simple and low taxes prevent loopholes that can be exploited.
Guest 714- Registered: 14 Apr 2011
- Posts: 2,594
At last people on the forum talking rationally about tax without the usual tribal hyperbole. A flat tax is the fairest method and maximises revenue. Doubters should have a look at Hong Kong and Singapore
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Even Russia. Since they went to a flat 13% the income tax take has almost doubled.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Russia is an unlikely example to compare with Britain.
With enormous revenues coming from oil and gas exports, where oil is usually well over $100 dollars a barrel, there is no comparison between our economic needs and those of Russia.
The Russians can afford a low income tax rate, we can't!
We don't export millions of barrels of oil a day and millions of cubic metres of gas every year.
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,888
David #8, sadly rational talking seldom lasts.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Talking of post 8, Jan, Hong Kong and Singapore are also unlikely comparisons with Britain, as the economy of these two city-states is largely based on big companies registering and putting up headquarters there, with very little local economic productivity, except, perhaps, office workers for the big companies.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Alexander truth be told the UK cannot afford high tax rates.
Work it out for yourself - you have been told the facts of economic life time after time by several people but you ignore it.
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
"
FRENCH BUDGET DETAILS
The first details of the French 2013 budget are out now!
Here are the early highlights.
Economic projections
• The Budget forecasts economic growth of 0.8% in 2013 and 2% every year between 2014 and 2017.
• The deficit is forecast to drop to 3% of GDP in 2013, and then to 2.2% in 2014, and 1.3% in 2015
• Public spending will remain stable at 56.3% of GDP in 2013
• The National Debt will rise to 91.3% of GDP in 2013
• The structural deficit will be eliminated by 2015
Tax and Spending changes
• New tax rises worth €10bn for "wealthy households"...and €10bn on big businesses
• €4bn will be raised by cutting corporate tax relief on interest payments
• €2bn will be raised from French households through a new tax on share dividends
• A marginal tax rate will be created, at 45%, tipped to raise €320m
• A new 'exceptional' 75% tax rate for highest incomes, tipped to raise €210m
• Lowering the threshold for France's wealth tax, tipped to raise €1bn
Updated at 11:51 BST"
From...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/sep/28/eurozone-crisis-france-budget-spain-banks#block-50657792c0e3eab0be4929c8Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Tom - we will see whether their forecasts are any better than our Treasury makes, I suspect not.
I would also predict that these extra taxes will damage their economy and will not raise the revenues they claim. In fact it is quite likely that their tax revenues will fall as a result. We have seen this happen before.
Lets roll out the red carpet for French entrepreneurs and investors to come here and reduce our top rate to a maximum of 40% from the current 47%. They can help build our economy as France sinks further.
Guest 714- Registered: 14 Apr 2011
- Posts: 2,594
This budget is good news for the UK.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Clearly Barry's ideas of improving the British economy are based on attracting investors from other countries by way of a low maximum-rate tax on incomes.
The trouble is, it would drive other economies into ruin.
We'd become the pariah of the world and a despicable tax-haven, with rich people in other countries transferring their incomes to Britain to avoid tax in their own country.
Cheating other countries out of their tax would send the world economy into sheer collapse.
I'm sure the Government would never allow this to happen.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
dog eat dog alex we have lost a lot of money that has been moved to tax havens. even before this budget french people have been moving to west london in ever increasing numbers because they prefer the lifestyle.
there is even a french language radio station based in kensington.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Its the way the world works Alexander. They know what to do if they don't like it - the correct market response, not to be so stupid with extortionate and immoral levels of taxation.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Barry, we're talking here of the wealthy. No-one on the Forum supports tax increases on the poor and on the average earner.
Your theory of a flat tax would mean simply reducing the tax bracket of the rich and the extremely rich, nothing more, nothing less.
With a £1 trillion public debt, albeit £2.3 trillion all counted, your flat tax idea for the wealthy would be economic destruction. You would be effectively turning the lights out. The whole economy would collapse.