howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#41
it would be a sad world that had no faith and belief in anything other than material things.
bern has said, rightly in my opinion, the faith is not the problem, only creeps that misinterpret works to their own advantage.
#42
Bern - you make a very interesting point about respecting beliefs because people hold value in them. Yes, it means things to people so we should respect it. Okay then how about the BNP, Nazism, Stalinist Communism, Satanism, Vampirism, paedophilia, Occultism, or Cannibalism? The people who practice (or used to practice) these things held equally strong beliefs in them so does that mean we respect them too?
I know what you're going to say, these things had negative impacts on those who were affected by them unlike the more mainstream religions and beliefs. So what about then...
...all the death and destruction in the name of Islam?
...the recent anti-homosexual claptrap from the Pope?
...Catholic child sex abuse cases? (Now such a big problem that there is a major documentary and a page dedicated to it on Wikipedia)
...very real divisions in our society?
Are these things positive?
Atheism is my faith, it allows me to have faith in the material world around me and the people who inhabit it, not a fantasy god-figure and some magical land that he dwells in. It lets me thank PEOPLE for their efforts in providing whatever good things they provide, instead of ignoring their efforts and thanking some god-figure for it instead (which is highly rude). And it lets me enjoy life free from guilt and fear.
Us atheists are the lost, unclaimed, outsiders that have to do all the respecting while the "enlightened" ones soak up the respect and use the status of their religion to be more righteous than us and beyond criticism or challenge.
One more thing - the argument about not blaming religion for all the ills in the world, but blaming people instead, is lame and hugely misguided. How many atheists have you seen conducting holy wars, killing believers, or preaching their values to others? Roughly about none! Religion has been at the heart of so many of the world's horrors for centuries and continues to be so, and excusing it is lamentable in the extreme. I would go so far as to call this "offensive", but hey, none taken.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
#43
Rick I am not a million miles away from you on all this and indeed I feel contempt for the religious extremists and fanatics who can be likened to those you mention, who I agree deserve contempt for their beliefs, the Nazis, and others.
But nevertheless there are many ordinary and decent people who believe strongly in their faith without exhibiting these extremist tendancies. They a decent and moral and based their lives on that morality which they take from their religion. They do not hold with the worse excesses brought about by ignorant beliefs in their own religion let alone others.
These are the people who deserve respect. Not the muslim extremists or the christian fundamentalists or others of a similar ilk.
#44
Rick - I respect your faith. I do, however, think you are being exceptionally blinkered and naive. Atheists commit the most awful crimes and blame their Mothers, their poverty, their schools, their bad legs, whatever. The chip on your shoulder as an atheist is as much a burden as the resentment carried by islamists who feel rejected, and clearly causes you as much pain and anger - and we know where that leads. Chill. Be comforted by your faith and recognise it for what it is.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
#45
BERN
As has been said you get bad apples in every walk of life, religion, work, communities,police etc
But on the whole we can respect those that respect others.
I do hope that paulb will bring back the politics page which worked well
RICK
You do have a number of points and im aware of people who are humanists that 1 step further, and why? because religion was rammed down there throat, and no other views accepted.
Also that same religious leaders were seen to be far from whiter than white, in fact they were a very bad advert for the religion they promoted.
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
#46
Bern, I think it's fair to say that most belief systems are 'blinkered and naive', especially those that rely on doctrine (Atheism being less influenced by this than others). Also to say that Atheists blame physical factors for their own situations, this isn't such a bad thing. Although I despise the blame culture we have come to live in, there are in many cases reasons for people's state of existence. If a person's fortune, or misfortune (not luck) is attributed to a higher divine control then we have subscribe to the determinism and in some cases fatalism set out by that faith, if nothing else this outlook would expose religions as systems of control.
Main stream religions do set out a fairly good construct for morality, although fear is one of the incentives for subscription. I personally don't smack my kids because I would like them to do 'the right thing' because it is 'the right thing' not because they are fearful of me. (Although the 'right thing' follows the morals of the country we are raised in) Barry makes a good point that historically the morals set out by Christianity have shaped the moral code of our country, but many mainstream religions/faiths globally have the same codes. We could of course suggest that these are therefore divine, or accept that religion and belief are the obvious invention of man to rationalise the metaphysical questions that still stump us to this day...Voltaire and all that. Religion does a far better job of answering questions than science; science generally taking on problems it can resolve.
Without wanting to sit on the fence I'd describe myself as agnostic in my outlook, I appreciate that these things are about belief and I accept that although we are very clever as a species, we (especially me) 'know' very little. I would say I have very Christian values and have managed to post-rationalise most of them without religion in recent years. I do however have to agree with much of what Rick says about resulting acts of religion although I think wars could just as easily happen without such doctrine (many of which are subject to interpretation and entropy)
My main concern is how Religion is used! Recently my son was not offered a primary school place, based on the fact he does not attend church nor is christened. This was fairly dishonestly glazed over (although not hidden) in previous conversations. It was however prevalent in subsequent conversations once their intake quota had been filled. I know people that have had their children christened or attended church (purely superficially) to gain places in schools (much in the same way people attend to have nice wedding photos, aesthetically more desirable than outside registry offices) Our decision of school was defined by how the children in that school acted, and I appreciate that the school in question is as nice as it is by the presence of a faith. However it is clearly more important to blindly subscribe to a faith (or just lie) than it is to attempt to follow a righteous path. Exclusion in this way as far as I am concerned is just as bad as racism!
#47
Bad people will always find a reason to do bad things. Sometimes the reason used is religious. To disregard or besmirch religions because some people use them to satisfy their own need to do bad things is at best silly. Wars are justified by lots of things, religion among them. Religions have also done good stuff like educate and nurture, support and feed. Those things are forgotten in the crush to remember the bad stuff. Religion, like society and politics, will always be comandeered by people seeking power. That is in fact the antithesis of faith, and the faithful should claim faith back! Check out the politics surrounding Jesus in Palestine: manipulative, devious, murderous and based on the struggle for power. Christianity sprang from a political base, was abused policitally, and not much has changed, mainly because of the way people have twisted religions and politics to further their own greed and nned for power. Blame the people, not the faith!!
#48
Moving away from the good or bad things that people do, and getting back to my original point a bit more, I still do not think people should respect religions by default. Let's look at the mad things people are told to believe and then ask why they simply believe it without question.
Jesus's mum was a virgin and his dad was God. No questions asked.
Adam and Eve were the first humans - oh, and no evolutionary process was needed for them to arrive.
Moses caused the sea to part. Was he a Jedi?
According to Mohammed, total and utter surrender to Allah is the only acceptable way. Why?
According to God, nobody gets into Heaven except through Christ. Where's the free will in that?
The Bible has reports of glowing angelic figures. Ah, maybe they're aliens?
I could go on, but the point I am always trying to make about religion is the fact that nobody ever challenges it or questions it. Religious people, aside from living wholesome lives or being downright nasty extremists, tend to believe - and I mean REALLY believe, hook line and sinker - a load of frankly daft fairy stories which, if they were introduced today as a brand new concept, would be laughed out of existence. It seems that any stupid story you care to make up will have no credibility unless it survives and gets old, then it becomes outrageously credible to some simply on the strength of its age.
I'd stretch this point to say that some areas of the Christian faith have, relatively recently, seen the sheer ridiculousness of the Adam and Eve story (at last) and revised their religious views to conform a little more towards the (highly provable) Darwinian theory of evolution. They call it "intelligent design" - it is still a hopelessly romantic religious fairytale of an idea with as much basis in reality as luminous angels and devils, but it does show that as time changes, religious ideas and beliefs can change. Does this prove that they were for many centuries WRONG before? Eh? Perish the thought...
Religions came about in civilization's infancy before any real understanding of the world was gained. It's time we grew up. Religions still exist because people either cannot leave this infantile obsession behind or it is one of the best and most elaborate con tricks on humanity ever. When you really look hard at any religious system, the flock always follow the shepherd, and the shepherd is often in it for the money, power, influence, or choirboys.
I saw elsewhere on this forum a discussion about a possible UFO sighting. If I came on here and told you all that the photo shows a real UFO containing advanced beings who were here to warn us of mighy disasters in 2012, would you believe me or question my motives / sources? I feel fairly certain you wouldn't just accept my comments on blind faith. Yet people are told that there is a big old angry god up there, and his prophets could perform miracles and summon angels (amid many other party tricks) - tales which are every bit as ridiculous as my UFO story - but nobody ever questions these tales or challenges the truth in them. Why? Why are people, good and bad, so willing to accept without question a set of stories as solid truths and conform to a set of lifestyle rules without ever asking that tiny question - WHY?
Ah, that'll be that good old fear and guilt thing keeping the flock under tight control I guess.
#49
You don't have to believe to respect. I think you protest too much.............................
In addition, the fables are comfort stories for many: faith comes in many forms, some prefer the fables, some address theology as an academic topic, encompassing history and politics. There is room for many faiths and many forms of faith. I am not clear why you feel the need to batter them down and remove the comfort thay give to people. I do not think it matters what you believe as long as you respect other right to believe what they believe given that it does not infringe your human rights (such as invasion and attack!!)
Guest 650- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 542
#50
[quote]I could go on, but the point I am always trying to make about religion is the fact that nobody ever challenges it or questions it.
Yes, we do. I'm really sorry I can't enter this debate right now (DWMP is calling, very loudly
).
My view, though, is that before one dismisses a religion, one needs to learn about it in great depth. It's only then that the seeming conundrums and non sequiters can be resolved.
Incidentally, logic itself, which raises these questions, seemingly, is only one tool of one way of thinking belonging to one particular religion and also is based on and a matter of faith.
Thoughtful posts, Rick
#51
Absolutely, Maggie. And logic is a particularly human "gift" and could itself be challenged! Religion is, quite rightly, challenged even by the people who are within it. Challenge, debate and discussion are the ways forward in anything, especially faith and religion.