Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,879
Reginald Barrington wrote:Do you find yourself having to touch the paint by a 'Wet Paint' notice as well?
If that was directed to me the answer is no not at all.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Reginald Barrington
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 17 Dec 2014
- Posts: 3,257
Jan Higgins wrote:If that was directed to me the answer is no not at all.
No Jan to Karlos request to move the thread.
ie: just don't read it.
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Arte et Marte
ray hutstone- Registered: 1 Apr 2018
- Posts: 2,158
I am indebted to Thomas Eason for this exceptional analysis of where we are.
It is part of my job to study political history. Here is my attempt at injecting some perspective into recent events, a mixture of my own views and analysis done by people that know more than me. If you can’t handle nuance then look away:
1) Statues are not history. History can be found in museums, books and history departments. Statues are an attempt to celebrate someone. We do not learn history from statues and we do not forget history when there isn’t a statue. We have not forgotten Hitler because statues commemorating him as a great leader have been ripped down and similarly we have not forgotten Jimmy Savile because statues celebrating him as a philanthropist no longer exist.
2) The UK should not have statues of slave traders to celebrate their philanthropy. Regarding Edward Colston, the council should have removed that statue long ago, several petitions on this were made. The act of ripping it down is as much an act of history as the act of putting it up.
3) Removing these statues is not rewriting history, putting the statues up was an attempt to rewite history, it was part of Britain’s attempt to gloss over its barbaric past with fake conceptions of civility and charity. Judging by people’s lack of knowledge of empire, it worked. Moving such statues into museums with notes explaining their awful deeds would be remembering history - both the act as it happened and the Victorian attempt to rewrite it.
4) That said, slave traders are an easy target. Most of us can agree slave traders shouldn’t have statues celebrating their philanthropy. When others like Peel and Gladstone come into view problems emerge. These people were problematic, they did have some abhorrent views, but they also did some good. The good they did needs to be balanced up with the bad and an adult conversation should be held between councils, citizens and interest groups on these more complex cases. Most historical characters will have been racist or homophobic to some degree, there is a difference between this and making personal wealth from enslaving people. Some of these more complex cases will need to come down and some won’t, however, if activists push too hard on statues like Gladstone, support for any kind of movement to better remember history as it was by removing statues of abhorrent people will disappear.
5) The Churchill statue isn’t going anywhere and no one seriously thinks it is, stop with the fake outrage. On balance, I think he deserves a statue. That said, all historians worth their salt would agree there is a dire need for the UK to understand Churchill as he was rather than the caricature we have constructed. He was a flawed man that made bad decisions, had bad views by today’s standards and helped contribute to a number of atrocities, the Bengal famine being one. At the same time he also made some good decisions and was instrumental in the fight against the Nazis. Both of these statements are correct. If you disagree, you don’t know Churchill.
6) The Churchill statue has been vandalised many a time, let’s stop pretending this was the first or even the worst. The pics below show a few other recent examples. They’re all wrong.
7) The Churchill statue has been covered up for its own protection many a time. Stop acting like this was the first time. The 2001 May Day protests were one such time, the 2017 Million Mask March was another. It is a shame this needs to happen but it does, it really isn’t a big deal.
If seeing a statue of Churchill being covered up for its own protection makes you ‘ashamed to be British’ wait until you hear about the fact the government’s former scientific advisor has admitted that the government’s decision to lockdown late (despite warnings from around the world) has contributed to at least 20,000 unnecessary deaths; that scientists (including government advisors) are growing in confidence that a second wave will hit because of the government’s poor communication strategy and decisions; that we have the third highest death toll from COVID-19 in the world; that we are about to see mass job losses in one of the biggest recessions of our time; that a no deal Brexit is very much approaching despite that ‘oven ready deal’ the PM boasted about during the election; and that if it happens this no deal Brexit will make the UK’s experience of that recession a whole lot worse.
People are dead because of decisions by this government. People are about to die because of decisions by this government. There are bigger things to get angry about than a statue of a slaver going for a swim or a statue of Churchill being defaced. If you disagree, your priorities are wrong. Paint can be cleaned off, dead people cannot be brought back to life.
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Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,879
It seems the magistrates were justifiably annoyed by this moron's disrespectful action and gave him 14 days.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-53051096
It seems that mental health issues are now used far to often as an excuse to explain what is simply outrageous or illegal behaviour.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Reginald Barrington- Location: Dover
- Registered: 17 Dec 2014
- Posts: 3,257
"I am indebted to Thomas Eason for this exceptional analysis of where we are."
Indebted is a bit strong for copying and pasting someone's work, and exceptional please
Arte et Marte
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,879
I agree with the reasonable thoughts given by Thomas Eason until the last two paragraphs which partly depend on hindsight and your political viewpoint.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Guest 3130- Registered: 22 Feb 2019
- Posts: 67
I have been googling Matthew Webb to see if there are any traces of ungoodthinkfulness, in case I need to lead a mob to the seafront and throw his statue into the sea. No sign yet so it's safe. For now.
ray hutstone- Registered: 1 Apr 2018
- Posts: 2,158
Reginald Barrington wrote:"I am indebted to Thomas Eason for this exceptional analysis of where we are."
Indebted is a bit strong for copying and pasting someone's work, and exceptional please
Bit sniffy this morning, aren't you Reggie? I was acknowledging the chap's work, that's all. And I haven't got a clue what bee you have in your not inconsiderable bonnet about 'exceptional'. Did you take exception to it for some reason? Are there some facts you disagree with? Come on - give us all the benefit of your vast wisdom on such matters.
Captain Haddock
- Location: Marlinspike Hall
- Registered: 8 Oct 2012
- Posts: 8,101
'After one failed attempt at the crossing, Webb tried again on 24 August 1875. Coated in porpoise grease, he dived off Admiralty Pier, Dover, at a little before 1 p.m'.
Porpoise grease? One of the most intelligent animals on the planet? Bastard! Tear it down ....
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"We are living in very strange times, and they are likely to get a lot stranger before we bottom out"
Dr. Hunter S Thompson
Reginald Barrington- Location: Dover
- Registered: 17 Dec 2014
- Posts: 3,257
"History can be found in museums, books and history departments."
I'm guessing he got to books and then realised if he said more he was going to contradict himself so closed with history departments, other parts are just blatantly wrong, facts that are uncited and the whole thing is disjointed and rambling.
If you think his piece is exceptional then you should really look to your own education and put some work into the areas in which it is lacking.
I strongly suspect he could have said the moon is made of green cheese and so long as he puts a dig in about the government it fullfills your confirmation bias and you would leave sated.
Arte et Marte
Captain Haddock- Location: Marlinspike Hall
- Registered: 8 Oct 2012
- Posts: 8,101
"We are living in very strange times, and they are likely to get a lot stranger before we bottom out"
Dr. Hunter S Thompson
ray hutstone- Registered: 1 Apr 2018
- Posts: 2,158
Reginald Barrington wrote:"History can be found in museums, books and history departments."
I'm guessing he got to books and then realised if he said more he was going to contradict himself so closed with history departments, other parts are just blatantly wrong, facts that are uncited and the whole thing is disjointed and rambling.
If you think his piece is exceptional then you should really look to your own education and put some work into the areas in which it is lacking.
I strongly suspect he could have said the moon is made of green cheese and so long as he puts a dig in about the government it fullfills your confirmation bias and you would leave sated.
Crikey. I did touch a raw nerve, didn't I? I'll ignore the waffle about history. I notice you studiously avoid telling us where parts are wrong. You may find the posting disjointed and rambling. That is, of course, purely subjective and I can assure you that you are in a very small minority in thinking that way. And naturally, you're unable or unwilling to provide examples to support your comments.
This is one author's post, not a dissertation so I don't know why you expect citations. Do you always you always reference your comments? No, I didn't think so.
The thrust of the post is to point out that the debate about statues is of little relevance compared with this governments disastrous policies on Covid 19 and Brexit. We have possibly the highest excess mortality in the world from Covid. Britain alone accounts for nearly one tenth of all global fatalities. Boris has blundered from one pointless metaphor to another. The scandal of what has happened in our care homes is appalling. The rest of the world looks upon the UK either with pity or as a laughing stock. And the 'oven ready' Brexit deal? Is that your 'green cheese moon' perhaps, Reggie? Even the Conservative party's house magazine - The Spectator - has branded the feckless buffoon as unfit to serve as a PM. (I can provide a citation or that as you're so keen on such things).
And now to cap it all, we have a 22 year old footballer having to point out that caring for the poorest kids in a country with the 5th biggest economy in the world is probably a good and compassionate idea. And what does laughing boy do? He says in a national broadcast that he only heard of the Rashford's comments yesterday having refused to accept his arguments only the day before!
Your comments about my education are too 'ad hominem' for my taste. Once again, you throw out a comment on a subject you know two fifths or f**k all about. The only thing I will say is that I was taught to assess and evaluate facts accurate and objectively. That, I'm afraid, is something you are obviously lacking.
Reginald Barrington- Location: Dover
- Registered: 17 Dec 2014
- Posts: 3,257
Touché.
Arte et Marte
Reginald Barrington- Location: Dover
- Registered: 17 Dec 2014
- Posts: 3,257
Sorry meant touchy
Arte et Marte
Weird Granny Slater
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 7 Jun 2017
- Posts: 3,071
To chuck in my pennyworth, I didn't find the Eason stuff rambling; but I did find it confused and, rather than 'exceptional', entirely conventional Left. One bit that irked was this:
'Statues are not history... We do not learn history from statues...'
This is nonsense. Of course statues are history. A statue’s an historical artefact; like any historical artefact it’s open to historical interpretation. The very fact that a statue can be at once a target for destruction and an object of veneration demonstrates just how overloaded with historical meaning it is. The idea that we can learn nothing of fascism from the monumental statuary in the Foro Italico, say, is a monumentally ignorant one, especially from someone whose ‘job [is] to study political history’.
'Pass the cow dung, my dropsy's killing me' - Heraclitus
Weird Granny Slater- Location: Dover
- Registered: 7 Jun 2017
- Posts: 3,071
What's more... (btw since the history and statue stuff was a red herring, shouldn't the piece have been posted on the 'coronavirus' thread?)
'...the government’s former scientific advisor has admitted that the government’s decision to lockdown late... has contributed to at least 20,000 unnecessary deaths'
Putting aside the question of what a 'necessary death' would be, presumably this is Neil Ferguson of Imperial College, the man whose buggy and unreconstructed software model, having previously got it so wildly wrong with foot-and-mouth, BSE, bird flu, and swine flu, predicted 500,000 covid-19 deaths in the UK. The model also predicted some 45,000 deaths in Sweden if the country adhered to its current policy of no 'lockdown'; on 16 June Sweden's total stood at 4,891. Hardly a man to trust on figures. And it bears repeating that, in the UK, infections peaked before 'lockdown'.
'that scientists (including government advisors) are growing in confidence that a second wave will hit because of the government’s poor communication strategy and decisions'
Just as many and probably more scientists think a second wave is a unicorn; most likely those ‘government advisors’ are digging the groundwork for the government to be able to say ‘Look, no second wave! We did it!’ Besides, the behavioural psychologists on the panel have discovered just how easy it is change the behaviour of an entire nation by keeping in thrall to fear.
'we have the third highest death toll from COVID-19 in the world'
Meaningless without context. A better measure is deaths per million. UK is 629.7, 4th highest. Higher still is Belgium, also a ‘lockdown’ country. Sweden, btw, is 482.8 with no ‘lockdown’. Besides, how many of these deaths were 'with' rather than 'from' covid-19? In England, up to 9 June, out of 27,706 deaths, only 1,334 were recorded with no known comorbidities.
'we are about to see mass job losses in one of the biggest recessions of our time'
Probably true enough. But this is a consequence of the ‘lockdown’ policy. Surely had it been imposed earlier, the economic consequences would be greater? Again, Sweden’s economy looks in better shape, with no ‘lockdown’.
'a no deal Brexit is very much approaching despite that ‘oven ready deal’ the PM boasted about during the election; and that if it happens this no deal Brexit will make the UK’s experience of that recession a whole lot worse'
See the Brexit thread, Remain contributions.
'People are dead because of decisions by this government. People are about to die because of decisions by this government. There are bigger things to get angry about than a statue of a slaver going for a swim or a statue of Churchill being defaced.'
True enough. But many deaths are as a consequence of ‘lockdown’ and ‘protect the NHS’ at all costs (throwing the elderly sick out of hospital into care homes, cancelling scheduled operations and cancer check-ups, house arrest, deprivation of social life, etc.) not because ‘lockdown’ wasn’t enforced sooner.
And finally...
'If you disagree, your priorities are wrong' and 'If you disagree, you don’t know Churchill.'
The sound of a mind closing its doors. A mournful sound anywhere, but especially in academia.
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'Pass the cow dung, my dropsy's killing me' - Heraclitus
ray hutstone- Registered: 1 Apr 2018
- Posts: 2,158
Reginald Barrington wrote:Sorry meant touchy
No Reggie. Merely factual.
Weird Granny Slater- Location: Dover
- Registered: 7 Jun 2017
- Posts: 3,071
'Pass the cow dung, my dropsy's killing me' - Heraclitus
Captain Haddock- Location: Marlinspike Hall
- Registered: 8 Oct 2012
- Posts: 8,101
"We are living in very strange times, and they are likely to get a lot stranger before we bottom out"
Dr. Hunter S Thompson
Captain Haddock- Location: Marlinspike Hall
- Registered: 8 Oct 2012
- Posts: 8,101
"We are living in very strange times, and they are likely to get a lot stranger before we bottom out"
Dr. Hunter S Thompson