Guest 693- Registered: 12 Nov 2009
- Posts: 1,266
#21
I find the suggestion that Remembrance Day should be consigned to history after the 2014 commemorations are over to be perfectly ridiculous. We learn from history, or at least we should do. I personally believe that all schoolchildren should be taken at some time during their education to the Thiepval Memorial, the Menin Gate and Tyne Cot Cemetery as part of the history curriculum; I don't think I know of anyone who has failed to be astonished by the sheer scale of the losses recorded and/or on display at those locations.
The sacrifice of previous generations needs to be witnessed so that the coming generations understand what is at stake; the loss of one soldier in Afghanistan makes the national news these days and their loss properly mourned when the body is flown home. Given that, shouldn't future generations see the scale of the horrors of WW1? Simple facts like the loss of 29,000 men killed or wounded on one day alone (July 1st 1916), which was the then population of Dover. Hundreds of thousands of men whose bodies were never recovered. Mines which were exploded in Belgium and felt in Downing Street.
The scale of the losses, the futility of warfare and the heroism of the fallen is something we should never forget.
True friends stab you in the front.
Guest 684- Registered: 26 Feb 2009
- Posts: 635
#22
Let's hope Dover does the commemoration justice at the town's two great WW1 memorials, by the Town Hall and in the Marine station. I have no doubt Dover will. It's one thing we do well.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
#23
One reason for the start of WWI was the absence of Democracy:
Had the peoples of the British Isles, France, Germany and Russia been asked: Do you want a world war?, the majority may have voted: No.
To date we have not learnt the lesson of refusing to allow REAL Democracy a say in Society.
The Second World War started for the same reasons, plus another reason, namely that Hitler convinced the German army to swear an oath of allegiance to him, a mortal man!
My Faith tells me that we must obey the High City and follow Christ, and subordinate our Country to Christ's Rule. Democracy is a way for people to govern their Society, but should always be subordinate to a Constitution of basic principles founded upon the Gospel.
The next step in this is for Countries to make an Alliance based on the Common Faith in Christ. This would mean a war between Christian nations would be unacceptable in principle.
We should not forget that all the countries that participated in the First World War, except Turkey, were nominally Christian in Faith and all proclaimed the Christian Faith as important. In reality, they had subverted the Faith and based their fortunes on massive military armaments. While at the same time not giving the People real Democracy either.
SWWood- Location: Dover
- Registered: 30 May 2012
- Posts: 261
#24
Alexander, are you saying religion is a way to prevent conflict? Surely history suggests that for centuries religion has been the cause of many of the wars fought in Europe.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
#25
Stuart, the Christian Faith does not teach Christians to kill each other, nor to use violence to preach the Faith.
Where does the Gospel say that millions of men should dig trenches and kill each other?
Had Democracy been given a chance, people may have expressed their contrary vote to a war in 1914, in Britain and Ireland as in Austria, Germany, France and Russia.
The fact is, we are not allowed to vote on these issues, and after our mouths have been gagged, and others have decided for us, then all the blame is conveniently heaped on "religion". Even the Christian Faith?
I don't think many people will buy this one, that Christ told us to fight the First World War!
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
#26
alex,1 sentance from a bible and i qoute,"an eye for an eye,a tooth for a tooth" unqoute.need i say more.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
#27
The Crusades were all about killing.
Roger
SWWood- Location: Dover
- Registered: 30 May 2012
- Posts: 261
#28
Alex, I did not suggest that Christianity was actively promoting warfare. However, to suggest that religion has not been the cause and driving force of many conflicts in the past is an astonishing re-writing of history. How can centuries of Catholic/Protestant fighting not have its foundations in religion?
Also Alex, please don't interpret this or my previous post as an attack on you or your faith, as that was not my intention at all. I respect your opinions on this issue, but I cannot share them. As I see it, the causes of WW1 were too complicated to be simply written off as a lack of religion or democracy.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#29
i have never worked out the reason for the great war, heard and read about many different things, none of which could justify such a conflagration.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
#30
Brian, the quote you make is not from the Gospel.
Stuart, the Protestant and Catholic fighting in the German Thirty Years War is said to have caused the death of two thirds of the German population, either through war, mass killings or famine as a result of sacking and looting.
No historian blames it on Jesus. You keep mentioning religions, but I did specifically write "the Christian Faith".
As for WWI, I can't see how people on all sides would not have wanted to prevent it from starting, or at least to have finished the war much sooner, if they had had a democratic vote on the issue.
We must realise that the Christian Faith and Democracy are all-important and never cease striving for a Society where no-one can lead us into catastrophe by denying us these values.
I would put the start of WWI down to monarchic Establishments who, although closely related and often cousins with each other, treated Society like a game of chess.
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
#31
Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
Guest 664- Registered: 23 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,039
#32
You could argue, Tom, that a state of war or readiness for a wider European war existed almost continually in Europe (with perhaps a break from 1918 to 1933 when the Nazis came to power) from the 1870s until 1991, with the collapse of the Soviet Union.
That power vacuum of course unleashed a civil war in Yugoslavia.
the above quote from Bertrand Russell sums it up perfectly. We could have avoided war, but wanted to "sort out" the beastly Hun and stop Germany getting its share of the Imperial spoils and competing with our Navy.
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
#33
Germany's imperial spoils are the back drop to the film The African Queen.
When the war was over Germany's possessions in Africa were given to Belgium, at least what was to become Rwanda was. [The Belgians having previously tried to purchase the Caribbean island of Hispaniola.]
This led directly to Pass Laws and on to Apartheid.
Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
#34
Tom, after WW1, Germany gave up Namibia and Kenya to Britain, and Cameroon to France.
Britain then gave Namibia to South Africa as an administrative territory.
Germany also gave up their part of Papua New Guinea to Britain, later given to Australia to administer together with British New Guinea.
When WW1 started, the global cake was already shared out in slices.
Guest 644- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,214
#35
I was at the Thiepval Memorial last Sunday and located the name of Cpl Victor Brown, a Dover lad.
Victor was born on the 24th May 1895 and was living in Longfield Road at the outbreak of hostilities. He went to Dover County School (now DGSB) but in October 1914 volunteered to join the RNVR Dover Anti-Aircraft Corps. From there he was assigned to the Langdon Station searchlights where he worked every other night watching over the channel for enemy aircraft and zeppelins. During the day he worked at Bradley Brothers corn merchants.
On the 24th August 1915 he left the Corps and volunteered to join the infantry and was assigned to the 2nd Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers. He attained the rank of corporal and was posted to France. Victor was sadly killed on the opening attack on the Battle of the Somme on the 1st July 1916 when his Battalion emerged from their trenches near Bertrancourt and walked towards the enemy lines. They, like so many others, were cut down by German machine gun fire from troops who had remained hidden in deep shelters protecting them from the previous weeks artillery bombardment.
Lt. Cdr. Henry D. Capper of the Dover searchlight corps paid tribute to him in Dover Town Hall in August 1916 when the Corps were disbanded, calling him 'gallant'. He was the only ex-member to die on active service and their youngest, being only 21 when he was killed.
I believe he is commemorated on the DGSB memorial window. His sister, Mrs Weekes, lived at 240 Folkestone Road.
It's poignant to travel to France and find a local lad who stood where we all have stood so many times.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
#36
A wonderful, but very sad posting Phil - Thank You.
Does Maggie (DWMP) know all of this ?
Roger
Guest 693- Registered: 12 Nov 2009
- Posts: 1,266
#37
I think some on here are putting modern thinking into Victorian/Edwardian thinking, and the two are poles apart. Fighting for King and Country was seen as the norm at a time when the monarchy was far more revered than today, and (especially at the start of the Great War) going to Europe to give the Hun a bloody nose was looked upon not only as one's duty, but something of an adventure. Ridiculous by today's standards, but there is plenty of evidence that many looked up circumstances in this way.
I was really moved by Phil's post. The monumental size of the Thiepval memorial blew me away when I first went there, and it's impossible for me to be as eloquent as Phil about visiting the place. Suffice it to say that we were looking for the name of Private Harry Barton, a Dover lad like Cpl Victor Brown. Harry was a tram driver in the town who volunteered for The Buffs regiment at the outbreak of war - his letters home to his Mum convey in wonderful detail the spirit of adventure I was referring to in the first paragraph of this post; his family still retain his cigars as a memento. His name has been researched in great detail by Maggie & Simon of the DWMP and details can be found here :
http://www.doverwarmemorialproject.org.uk/Casualties/WWI/SurnamesB.htm
Harry Barton has stayed with me ever since we went to photograph his name on the Thiepval Memorial - I often think of him and wonder if he had any inkling of what he was volunteering for. When I think of our fallen on Remembrance Day, I always think of Harry Barton first.
True friends stab you in the front.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
#38
i see that barry w is there as well.
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
#39
"The Battle of the Somme is out now on DVD, priced £19.99."
(they give this link when you take a quote)
Read more:
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/newsfocus/447858-letting-the-reel-truth-be-told#ixzz29dsOHlYY" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer">
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/newsfocus/447858-letting-the-reel-truth-be-told#ixzz29dsOHlYY
[I cannot edit-out the double link.]
Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
#40
P.S.
Watch the (original?) documentary online here...
http://documentaryheaven.com/battle-of-the-somme/Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
True friends stab you in the front.
