John Buckley
- Registered: 6 Oct 2013
- Posts: 615
Perhaps somewhat misguided, but I have always previously believed that the labour party, if nothing else, were at least reasonably democratic and supposedly represented "the people", i.e., basically the majority of the population who were either retired or were from a working class background etc. However, that was obviously only something of an illusion, bearing in mind that the party leadership now refuses outright to even consider us mere mortals a chance to have a say on our continuing membership of the EU by way of a referendum, whether most of us demand one or not.
As bizarre as it seems, the labour party actually want MORE EU, not less! Bearing in mind that the vast majority of the British public would relish the opportunity to have a say on our membership of that failing system, this chance would be denied to us should the labour party ever find themselves in a position to form the next government ( God help us! ) Are governments not supposed to reflect the will of the people that they allegedly represent, or is it a case of the usual "we know best" scenario, you thickos who misguidedly vote for us don`t understand such matters, better leave it to us professional career politicians?
If the labour party is truly democratic then surely they should be prepared to allow us the option to voice our opinion on this important subject when the majority of us are loudly demanding that we have such a referendum on our membership. Especially as the last say we had on this subject over forty years ago was simply a vote on the common market, which was only to decide on a trading agreement with the EU of course, not a political union.
We were lied to at that time by the conservative government and Edward Heath who said " There is no question of eroding any national sovereignty; there is no blueprint for a federal Europe. There are some in this country who fear that in going into Europe, we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty. These fears I need hardly say are completely unjustified." But later in 1990, in response to the question: "Did you have in mind a United States of Europe in 1972?" Heath's answer was: "Of course, yes".
So a fresh and honest referendum on this matter is way overdue and should be granted sooner, rather than later or not at all!
But this is unlikely to ever happen now thanks to the labour party. In this regard, unfortunately, another good example of labour party "democracy" in action, is the utterly disgraceful and shameful attempt by the labour MP Mike Gapes, who in an attempt to railroad the conservative bill proposing a referendum in 2017, has tabled more than 50 amendments to the legislation, 18 of which attempt to change, or place constraints on, the date of the proposed referendum. This has only been done purely in order to ensure time-wasting with a tactical objective to make sure that the bill runs out of time and does not go through. Is it correct therefore, that although perfectly "legal", the labour party should use the parliamentary system to simply deny the majority of us a say on the EU, because that is just exactly what they are doing? Personally, I would consider it an abuse of their powers and an underhanded way of manipulating the system for their own ends, legal or otherwise.
So those of you out there that ever thought that you would have a government in waiting that actually cared for democracy, think again. Furthermore, incidentally and rather surprisingly to some, the conservatives are unlikely to give us a referendum on the EU either, regardless of their posturing on the subject, but I`ll explain why on another thread if and when time permits!
However, if the above is not of any importance to you and you wish to retain a pro EU and pro immigration party in government then go ahead and vote red or blue at the next general election. ( the lib-dims are not even worth mentioning of course! )
In conclusion, the ONLY party that can guarantee to give you a say on our EU membership by way of a referendum without any "tricks" is UKIP. A vote for any other party will deny you that chance.
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
UKIP
the party that has no democracy expels its members without room to justify themselves or appeal
the non democratic party
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
yes and no john.
Guest 1033- Registered: 23 Aug 2013
- Posts: 509
I have never believed that any of the two and a bit major parties have given tinker's cuss for the electorate, and its probably been that way since the demise of MPs like Aneurin Bevan. Despite what certain members of this forum imagine, I welcome a viable alternative to the showers sitting in Westminster, and quite happily gave my support to the BNP, whose policies were somewhat suspect in certain areas, but were getting enough credibility for the establishment to do a right hatchet job on Nick Griffin through the auspices of their tame tv channel, the 'independant' bbc.
I put a question on here about the EU, and from all the answers I got during the discussion, I have decided that I don't want to be in it anymore, and if its true that the majority if the electorate want out, then no politicians from any party have the right to keep us in, and a referendum, with straightforward questions would be the only fair and decent thing to do. The biggest problem is that we don't appear to have any fair or decent MPs in government or opposition.
John Buckley- Registered: 6 Oct 2013
- Posts: 615
Really? Is that the best you can do Keith? I think you`ll find that, including your precious labour party, any political party can expel a member who breaks the laid down rules of membership.
But that is just the sort of simplistic reply that I expected from you, so no surprises there then.
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,895
When have politicians really taken any notice of what the public want, all they occasionally do is tweak a law here and there to try and shut us up.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
there you have it
john has no interest in democracy
happy to expel without course to put there case or appeal
UKIP THE UNDEMOCRATIC PARTY
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
getting back to the original post i think it is fair to say that the people's party have long moved away from their core support.
one nation ed came through the comprehensive system, earned a place at oxford, seems a nice enough bloke but completely out of touch with the people.
back in the 70's the reds saw through the eec con but didn't have the funding to win the campaign, big business won the day and the major political parties are happy to string along with that.
incidentally mike gapes was my m.p before i moved here, nothing surprises me about him.
Guest 1033- Registered: 23 Aug 2013
- Posts: 509
Our local Mp went to my daughter's school, and I made sure to count her fingers after he'd shaken her hand.
Very suspicious of the millibands too, you would have thought that one politician in a family would have been enough, but two from the same generation is a bit much, or is it just an alternative to being a weather forecaster ?
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
you can be so cruel baz, what more could the public want?
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Anyone who thinks UKIP will give us a referendum on Europe is a fantasist.
They will not do so simply because they will never have the power to do so.
The only thing they will achieve is let in Labour or Lib/Lab governments who are Eurofanatics.
Mind you - Labour and the LibDems are quite likely to give a referendum on the issue. But, they would do so only when a vote to remain in the EU is certain and with a twisted question.
The Conservative Party is the only party that can deliver a referendum that will get us out. The vast majority of the Party membership and MPs are Eurosceptic now. Any UKIP members who are serious about getting out of the EU should add their voices to Conservatives inside the Party and force the issue there.
The objective must be to get us out of the EU not to get a referendum. The referendum is only a means to an end.
Guest 1033- Registered: 23 Aug 2013
- Posts: 509
Howard, shotguns ?
